9 ms·

This is something to be extremely proud of. Espionage is how proprietary information gets disseminated and built upon (and eventually made public in some form,

This is something to be extremely proud of. Espionage is how proprietary information gets disseminated and built upon (and eventually made public in some form, or via its descendants). So many of the technologies we enjoy today are in widespread use because of espionage (industrial or government or both). It's how you even the tables from time to time. There's nothing immoral about espionage - only what you use the information for (to build systems of repression, or to build systems that improve ourselves).

foverzar 2y ago
Somehow people aren't that eager to make the same argument when accusing China of "IP theft".
OutOfHere 2y ago
If espionage is okay, then we should not be subject to intellectual property laws. The point is that there needs to be consistency between what's right for the country and what's right for its citizens.
- kstenerud 2y ago
  That's a naive way of looking at it. There's no "world police". It's the law of the schoolyard when it comes to international relations. You make and break alliances, set up partnerships, break them, gather information to help your allies, and life goes on. You spy on everyone. That's just how it works (by necessity). If some country is hoarding the secret to a revolutionary food that would help your starving citizens, you're not going to say "Oh, I'll just let my people starve because spying would be WRONG." If someone has a game changing weapon that they're threatening the region with, you're not going to say "I'll just let them have this power because spying is WRONG." If you could spy to get new chip technology that will elevate your country out of 80% poverty, you're not going to say "Oh, we'll just remain poor because spying is WRONG."
  - vasco 2y ago
    > won't do it because spying is WRONG They aren't going to say that, but spying is wrong. Murder is also wrong and governments still do it.
  - sulandor 2y ago
    imoho recognizing the necessity/righteousness of espionage goes hand in hand with disrespecting intellectual property rights. e.g. "my need to know supersedes your right to privacy"
    - kstenerud 2y ago
      > imoho recognizing the necessity/righteousness of espionage goes hand in hand with disrespecting intellectual property rights. What it shows is that life cannot be reduced to a set of rules. Rules are merely built upon a model of reality (and models are by definition incomplete) - reality does not conform to the rules. Much as we'd like to, we cannot achieve justice by rules alone. So one must come up with a living system that can accommodate reality. That living system is what we live under. It's not perfect, and cannot achieve perfect justice. But it adapts and does reasonably well - until it doesn't, and then the revolutionaries replace it to start the cycle anew.
  - ordu 2y ago
    > If some country is hoarding the secret to a revolutionary food that would help your starving citizens, you're not going to say "Oh, I'll just let my people starve because spying would be WRONG." There are things called "moral dilemmas". The situations when you have no options but to go against moral, the only choice you have is which particular moral rule you will break. Your proposed situations are examples of moral dilemmas. > There's no "world police". It's the law of the schoolyard when it comes to international relations. You make and break alliances, set up partnerships, break them, gather information to help your allies, and life goes on. If something is lawful it doesn't mean it is moral, and vice versa. Generally laws are written in a way to enforce moral, but laws are limited in what they can do, so they tend to be less restrictive then moral, and politicians writing laws are not exactly saints, so I wouldn't trust blindly to their moral reasoning. But even if there are no to punish you for a misdeed, it doesn't make the misdeed to be moral.
vasco 2y ago
> There's nothing immoral about espionage - only what you use the information for Please send me your personal journal, all your browser history too while we're at it, I won't do anything with the information, don't worry.
hulitu 2y ago
> There's nothing immoral about espionage Theft ? Kidnapping ? /s

foverzar 2y ago

Somehow people aren't that eager to make the same argument when accusing China of "IP theft".

OutOfHere 2y ago

If espionage is okay, then we should not be subject to intellectual property laws. The point is that there needs to be consistency between what's right for the country and what's right for its citizens.

kstenerud 2y ago
That's a naive way of looking at it. There's no "world police". It's the law of the schoolyard when it comes to international relations. You make and break alliances, set up partnerships, break them, gather information to help your allies, and life goes on. You spy on everyone. That's just how it works (by necessity). If some country is hoarding the secret to a revolutionary food that would help your starving citizens, you're not going to say "Oh, I'll just let my people starve because spying would be WRONG." If someone has a game changing weapon that they're threatening the region with, you're not going to say "I'll just let them have this power because spying is WRONG." If you could spy to get new chip technology that will elevate your country out of 80% poverty, you're not going to say "Oh, we'll just remain poor because spying is WRONG."
- vasco 2y ago
  > won't do it because spying is WRONG They aren't going to say that, but spying is wrong. Murder is also wrong and governments still do it.
- sulandor 2y ago
  imoho recognizing the necessity/righteousness of espionage goes hand in hand with disrespecting intellectual property rights. e.g. "my need to know supersedes your right to privacy"
  - kstenerud 2y ago
    > imoho recognizing the necessity/righteousness of espionage goes hand in hand with disrespecting intellectual property rights. What it shows is that life cannot be reduced to a set of rules. Rules are merely built upon a model of reality (and models are by definition incomplete) - reality does not conform to the rules. Much as we'd like to, we cannot achieve justice by rules alone. So one must come up with a living system that can accommodate reality. That living system is what we live under. It's not perfect, and cannot achieve perfect justice. But it adapts and does reasonably well - until it doesn't, and then the revolutionaries replace it to start the cycle anew.
- ordu 2y ago
  > If some country is hoarding the secret to a revolutionary food that would help your starving citizens, you're not going to say "Oh, I'll just let my people starve because spying would be WRONG." There are things called "moral dilemmas". The situations when you have no options but to go against moral, the only choice you have is which particular moral rule you will break. Your proposed situations are examples of moral dilemmas. > There's no "world police". It's the law of the schoolyard when it comes to international relations. You make and break alliances, set up partnerships, break them, gather information to help your allies, and life goes on. If something is lawful it doesn't mean it is moral, and vice versa. Generally laws are written in a way to enforce moral, but laws are limited in what they can do, so they tend to be less restrictive then moral, and politicians writing laws are not exactly saints, so I wouldn't trust blindly to their moral reasoning. But even if there are no to punish you for a misdeed, it doesn't make the misdeed to be moral.

vasco 2y ago

> There's nothing immoral about espionage - only what you use the information for Please send me your personal journal, all your browser history too while we're at it, I won't do anything with the information, don't worry.

hulitu 2y ago

> There's nothing immoral about espionage Theft ? Kidnapping ? /s