4 ms·

If they start to lock it down it just becomes the next iOS. It's already horrible with their 'recommendations' left and right, and preinstalled stuff that you

If they start to lock it down it just becomes the next iOS. It's already horrible with their 'recommendations' left and right, and preinstalled stuff that you cannot remove. And then it just becomes too easy for Microsoft to let their Windows Defender run in kernel mode and 3rd parties can't do that, so obviously they can outperform them. Kinda like iOS' Safari. Hell, that one runs in user mode, but it required laws for 3rd parties to be able to provide native alternatives.

Sakos 2y ago
Yeah, I don't understand what people want from Microsoft here. Either they lock it down completely, and we lose control of our Windows systems, which I thought was something people here were against, or they continue to allow kernel-level access, which can be and is pretty damn useful and I wouldn't give it up for the world. I like my Macbook, but I prefer my Windows desktop so much more because it still largely feels like my system instead of Apple's/Microsoft's. People. Stop asking Microsoft to lock down Windows.
otterley 2y ago
iOS is great! An OS that is secure by design arguably needs no third-party malware protection, and therefore there's nothing to permit.
- Sakos 2y ago
  It also makes file management a bloody nightmare, so much so that I gave up on iPhone/iPad years ago and moved back to Android. There are trade-offs. I don't want Windows to just become another MacOS or even iOS where I'm so limited in what I'm allowed to do with my system.
  - otterley 2y ago
    File management? It's a phone. Besides, if you absolutely must manage a file store, there's a native iCloud Files integration now (https://support.apple.com/en-us/102570 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102570). The situation is a lot better than it used to be.
    - Sakos 2y ago
      It being a phone doesn't change the fact that files exist and need to be managed. Yeah, iCloud files integration isn't what I'm looking for. It's just another workaround for the core problem that remains.
    - salawat 2y ago
      What in the hell makes you think that just because the form factor of a computer is a phone, that suddenly routine file management is something that no longer is on the list of things I might want to do? Truly one of the most brain-off takes I have ever had the misfortune of being privy to. "Hey, lets lock out one of the most basic computing primitives because the hardware form factor happens to be consistent with a telephony handset." Seriously. People who think like this are the same people who are draining the life out of computing. Trying to turn it into little more than a top-down orchestrated, network-access trickling device, instead of what it should be, which is an emancipator of the physical limitations of the human brain; a bicycle for the mind.
  - theshrike79 2y ago
    It's been a LONG while since I cared about "files" on my phone. Can't really think of a valid use-case to care really.
    - Sakos 2y ago
      Documents of all kinds. I guess you just use your phone for YouTube, TikTok and WhatsApp? That's fine, but that doesn't invalidate the obvious limitations of the OS and how that isn't acceptable to me. What happened to the technical competency of the people commenting on HN? You can't think of a single valid use-case? Really? Then it's a waste of time talking to you.
      - otterley 2y ago
        A big part of "technical competency" is using the right tool for the job.
        Sakos 2y ago
        And the right tool for the job when I'm not at my desktop or laptop is my phone. Imagine that. What the fuck is going on here? Why is HN trying to gaslight me into believing there's never a need to ever use or manage documents on a mobile device? What in the actual fuck.
        otterley 2y ago
        I think you're being a bit dramatic. Pretty much every cloud-based file management service has an iOS client. It's not like there are no solutions here.
jmull 2y ago
It could become like the next macos.
numbsafari 2y ago
… or they could implement sufficient interfaces to the kernel that they could implement Windows Defender in a safe manner and make those same interfaces available to others.
ryukoposting 2y ago
Dedicated antivirus applications like Defender are a band-aid over fundamental architectural problems with Windows. Containerization and deny-by-default access schemes would go a long way to reduce the need for those tools. Honestly, any semblance of modern, secure system architecture would help as long as it's combined with a willingness to obsolete the bullshit that got us into this mess in the first place.
- kenjackson 2y ago
  That take seems naive. A lot of malware works by getting the full consent of the user. Users often have no idea what they’re consenting to or the implications of it. And on top of that if you really require code to get permission for all resources they require customers will immediately look for ways to avoid having to manually do this step. The problem is that malware has basically an infinite number of tries to get you to run something. As there is almost no consequence when they fail.
  - dmichulke 2y ago
    > That take seems naive. A lot of malware works by getting the full consent of the user. Users often have no idea what they’re consenting to or the implications of it. That's IMO quite the defeatist attitude. Is there any way around this? And if so, who can go that way? In my opinion it's only Microsoft that can unilaterally improve the situation, not the least by letting the user make those decisions in the first place and also have him live with the consequences (loss of time / money). They will learn, especially after experiencing pain due to a wrong decision. A nanny OS that decides by itself won't make the user learn and it will always have loopholes.
  - candiddevmike 2y ago
    Microsoft has proven they can make an iron clad secure system: the Xbox. Everything runs as a micro VM. Why can't they apply this architecture to Windows?
    - wrs 2y ago

Sakos 2y ago

Yeah, I don't understand what people want from Microsoft here. Either they lock it down completely, and we lose control of our Windows systems, which I thought was something people here were against, or they continue to allow kernel-level access, which can be and is pretty damn useful and I wouldn't give it up for the world. I like my Macbook, but I prefer my Windows desktop so much more because it still largely feels like my system instead of Apple's/Microsoft's. People. Stop asking Microsoft to lock down Windows.

otterley 2y ago

iOS is great! An OS that is secure by design arguably needs no third-party malware protection, and therefore there's nothing to permit.

Sakos 2y ago
It also makes file management a bloody nightmare, so much so that I gave up on iPhone/iPad years ago and moved back to Android. There are trade-offs. I don't want Windows to just become another MacOS or even iOS where I'm so limited in what I'm allowed to do with my system.
- otterley 2y ago
  File management? It's a phone. Besides, if you absolutely must manage a file store, there's a native iCloud Files integration now (https://support.apple.com/en-us/102570 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102570). The situation is a lot better than it used to be.
  - Sakos 2y ago
    It being a phone doesn't change the fact that files exist and need to be managed. Yeah, iCloud files integration isn't what I'm looking for. It's just another workaround for the core problem that remains.
  - salawat 2y ago
    What in the hell makes you think that just because the form factor of a computer is a phone, that suddenly routine file management is something that no longer is on the list of things I might want to do? Truly one of the most brain-off takes I have ever had the misfortune of being privy to. "Hey, lets lock out one of the most basic computing primitives because the hardware form factor happens to be consistent with a telephony handset." Seriously. People who think like this are the same people who are draining the life out of computing. Trying to turn it into little more than a top-down orchestrated, network-access trickling device, instead of what it should be, which is an emancipator of the physical limitations of the human brain; a bicycle for the mind.
- theshrike79 2y ago
  It's been a LONG while since I cared about "files" on my phone. Can't really think of a valid use-case to care really.
  - Sakos 2y ago
    Documents of all kinds. I guess you just use your phone for YouTube, TikTok and WhatsApp? That's fine, but that doesn't invalidate the obvious limitations of the OS and how that isn't acceptable to me. What happened to the technical competency of the people commenting on HN? You can't think of a single valid use-case? Really? Then it's a waste of time talking to you.
    - otterley 2y ago
      A big part of "technical competency" is using the right tool for the job.
      - Sakos 2y ago
        And the right tool for the job when I'm not at my desktop or laptop is my phone. Imagine that. What the fuck is going on here? Why is HN trying to gaslight me into believing there's never a need to ever use or manage documents on a mobile device? What in the actual fuck.
        otterley 2y ago
        I think you're being a bit dramatic. Pretty much every cloud-based file management service has an iOS client. It's not like there are no solutions here.

jmull 2y ago

It could become like the next macos.

numbsafari 2y ago

… or they could implement sufficient interfaces to the kernel that they could implement Windows Defender in a safe manner and make those same interfaces available to others.

ryukoposting 2y ago

Dedicated antivirus applications like Defender are a band-aid over fundamental architectural problems with Windows. Containerization and deny-by-default access schemes would go a long way to reduce the need for those tools. Honestly, any semblance of modern, secure system architecture would help as long as it's combined with a willingness to obsolete the bullshit that got us into this mess in the first place.

kenjackson 2y ago
That take seems naive. A lot of malware works by getting the full consent of the user. Users often have no idea what they’re consenting to or the implications of it. And on top of that if you really require code to get permission for all resources they require customers will immediately look for ways to avoid having to manually do this step. The problem is that malware has basically an infinite number of tries to get you to run something. As there is almost no consequence when they fail.
- dmichulke 2y ago
  > That take seems naive. A lot of malware works by getting the full consent of the user. Users often have no idea what they’re consenting to or the implications of it. That's IMO quite the defeatist attitude. Is there any way around this? And if so, who can go that way? In my opinion it's only Microsoft that can unilaterally improve the situation, not the least by letting the user make those decisions in the first place and also have him live with the consequences (loss of time / money). They will learn, especially after experiencing pain due to a wrong decision. A nanny OS that decides by itself won't make the user learn and it will always have loopholes.
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  Microsoft has proven they can make an iron clad secure system: the Xbox. Everything runs as a micro VM. Why can't they apply this architecture to Windows?
  - wrs 2y ago