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So if I can regurgitate the textbook, my brain violates copyright? I think the more sensible take is that the reproduction by the LLM violates copyright, but n

So if I can regurgitate the textbook, my brain violates copyright? I think the more sensible take is that the reproduction by the LLM violates copyright, but not the act of training nor the LLM weights themselves.

yencabulator 2y ago
If your shared copies of your brain in that state, it seems like that would. Lots of LLM models can be downloaded. If you had memorized the textbook from a stash of torrented epubs, as a commercial activity with intent to monetize, that likely wouldn't go over well for you either. The "big AI" companies are trying to create a world of rules for thee not for me by claiming that when copyright infringement is large scale enough, it somehow becomes fair use.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  You're never going to get a textbook out of an LLM, or a chapter, or a page. Big-IP lawyers probably spend weeks engineering prompts to find enough stuff that comes out un-paraphrased. Poems and lyrics, maybe. The legal test for fair use considers "the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole." In this case it's the portion regurgitated near-verbatim, since paraphrasing and summarizing is fair use. You can write Cliff Notes without the author's permission. LLMs are probably capable of failing the fair use tests for less than 0.1% of the stuff they're exposed to.
dahart 2y ago
Yes, that is what copyright law already says (that your brain reproducing a work is the violation, not your brain itself), which is why it took time for the lawsuits to build momentum - they had to find evidence of copyright violating reproduction. The part you’re missing here is that acquiring and using copyrighted data without permission also violates copyright. Just like copying and watching a movie you didn’t pay for or legally acquire violates copyright. It’s a worse offense to distribute a movie you don’t have the rights to, but copying one and consuming it without permission is an offense nonetheless. The act of training on data not legally acquired, therefore, certainly can be a copyright violation.
- mr_toad 2y ago
  > using copyrighted data without permission also violates copyright This is simply not true. There are many things that copyright law prevents, but no copyright law goes as far as to say that all use without permission is forbidden. And no copyright law expressly forbids training AI either.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - dahart 2y ago
    You inserted the word “all” into “all use without permission” which is not what I said. Fair Use is a thing, and the big AI players have tried to claim Fair Use, so far unsuccessfully. They’ve requested new rulings on Fair Use for AI, which admits they are aware they’re potentially violating existing copyright law, and are seeking to make their use legal. The copyright office says downloading movies violates copyright. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#:~:text=Uploading%20or%20downloading%20works%20protected,of%20reproduction%20and%2For%20distribution https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#:~:text=.... See also (same page) “If you use a copyrighted work without authorization, the owner may be entitled to bring an infringement action against you.” > no copyright law expressly forbids training AI either. That’s irrelevant. The law covers using copyrighted material without permission. Fair Use is a type of permission, but otherwise they don’t have to specify what it gets used for.

yencabulator 2y ago

If your shared copies of your brain in that state, it seems like that would. Lots of LLM models can be downloaded. If you had memorized the textbook from a stash of torrented epubs, as a commercial activity with intent to monetize, that likely wouldn't go over well for you either. The "big AI" companies are trying to create a world of rules for thee not for me by claiming that when copyright infringement is large scale enough, it somehow becomes fair use.

worstspotgain 2y ago
You're never going to get a textbook out of an LLM, or a chapter, or a page. Big-IP lawyers probably spend weeks engineering prompts to find enough stuff that comes out un-paraphrased. Poems and lyrics, maybe. The legal test for fair use considers "the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole." In this case it's the portion regurgitated near-verbatim, since paraphrasing and summarizing is fair use. You can write Cliff Notes without the author's permission. LLMs are probably capable of failing the fair use tests for less than 0.1% of the stuff they're exposed to.

dahart 2y ago

Yes, that is what copyright law already says (that your brain reproducing a work is the violation, not your brain itself), which is why it took time for the lawsuits to build momentum - they had to find evidence of copyright violating reproduction. The part you’re missing here is that acquiring and using copyrighted data without permission also violates copyright. Just like copying and watching a movie you didn’t pay for or legally acquire violates copyright. It’s a worse offense to distribute a movie you don’t have the rights to, but copying one and consuming it without permission is an offense nonetheless. The act of training on data not legally acquired, therefore, certainly can be a copyright violation.

mr_toad 2y ago
> using copyrighted data without permission also violates copyright This is simply not true. There are many things that copyright law prevents, but no copyright law goes as far as to say that all use without permission is forbidden. And no copyright law expressly forbids training AI either.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- dahart 2y ago
  You inserted the word “all” into “all use without permission” which is not what I said. Fair Use is a thing, and the big AI players have tried to claim Fair Use, so far unsuccessfully. They’ve requested new rulings on Fair Use for AI, which admits they are aware they’re potentially violating existing copyright law, and are seeking to make their use legal. The copyright office says downloading movies violates copyright. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#:~:text=Uploading%20or%20downloading%20works%20protected,of%20reproduction%20and%2For%20distribution https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#:~:text=.... See also (same page) “If you use a copyrighted work without authorization, the owner may be entitled to bring an infringement action against you.” > no copyright law expressly forbids training AI either. That’s irrelevant. The law covers using copyrighted material without permission. Fair Use is a type of permission, but otherwise they don’t have to specify what it gets used for.