6 ms·

I have a "radical" idea: why not actually let the constituency of this party make the choice.

lann 2y ago
Or actually radical: switch from our terrible first-past-the-post voting system to - say - ranked choice (or one of many alternatives; they're almost all better than fptp) and then primaries won't be so important and parties won't have so much power over our kinda-democratic-but-actually-oligarchic political system.
- Aloisius 2y ago
  California state primaries are top-2, not FPTP turning the general election into essentially a run-off. Parties still dominate. Same with my city elections which use RCV. I’m not sure why they would reduce party influence either. Features like being robust against spoilers would seem to most benefit major party candidates.
  - lann 2y ago
    Top-2 is a primary system, not a voting system. When combined with (essentially a generalized version of) FPTP you get most of the same problems.
    - Aloisius 2y ago
      It's a two-round voting system. It is, by definition, not FPTP. There only functional difference between it and say, the original French two-round system that Maurice Duverger (of Duverger's law) contrasted with FPTP is that someone who wins an outright majority in the first election (an open "primary" in California) is not immediately elected. The fact the second round is FPTP doesn't change the overall voting system. With only two candidates for a single seat, most voting systems degenerate to FPTP, but none of the issues related to FPTP are present either (there are no clones, no strategic voting, etc.)
  - aldonius 2y ago
    By more-or-less eliminating spoiler effect RCV actually benefits major and minor party candidates (and of course, voters!). For majors the benefit is clear: you don't get spoiled. For minors, you don't have to overcome the barrier of being a spoiler if the race looks remotely close. And of course voters are not disadvantaged just for having two acceptable choices rather than one.
- tshaddox 2y ago
  It would be kinda funny to keep the electoral college but change the ballots to ranked choice.
  - LargeWu 2y ago
    There's no reason this couldn't happen. States have great latitude to determine their own election laws, including how they allocate electoral votes or elect federal offices. Nebraska and Maine can split their electoral votes. Georgia requries 50% + 1 for US Senate and Governor instead of a plurality, and will have a runoff election if no candidate gets a majority in the general election. Ranked choice would just be another method. The problem is that the two ruling parties have very little incentive to introduce this.
- smegger001 2y ago
  because we cant do that in the next 4 months as it would require a overwhelming enough demand from the electorate that a super majority of representatives in the house and senate along with the president would have to pass a constitutional amendment that is otherwise considered against their own interests, then it would need to be ratified by the states and pass through the inevitable challenges in the supreme court that seem dead set against anything resembleling democracy this year.
  - lann 2y ago
    Nationally yes, but states can do it independently (piecemeal).
t43562 2y ago
This sometimes turns out very badly - in the UK it led to "faster than a lettuce goes bad" Liz Truss for example. Conservative party members are an odd bunch. Labour also picked Jeremy Corbyn an election back. Ultimately the rest of the country didn't want to vote for him.
- znkynz 2y ago
  Two party systems are the problem here, not the candidates
- Macha 2y ago
  Notably Corbyn actually got more votes than Starmer in both elections he ran - the change is more to do with the right vote being split between the conservatives and reform, the conservatives losing the centrist vote after the clown show of the last 5 years, and a unofficial pact between Labour/LibDems prevented splitting the centrist/left vote the same way the right vote was split.
  - t43562 2y ago
    the fact that they were able to make that pact is probably because they're not miles apart and Corbyn couldn't get that to happen. e.g. I don't think I could ever have voted for him given his attitude on Ukraine but I could have voted for Starmer if that was what made sense in my area.
    - sudosysgen 2y ago
      Sure, but people like you weren't sufficient to change the fact that Corbyn still got more votes. The libdems of 2024 have a very different situation in that despite the Tory implosion they are weaker than ever. I'd put my money on them either still making the deal or getting buried if Labour had even more votes.
      - t43562 2y ago
        I think you could posit the opposite - that he lost because he motivated more people to vote against him. Labour now hasn't united its opposition because I think nobody fears it much.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
It's barely been a few hours yet I've seen this idea making the rounds. Seems manufactured.
- qingcharles 2y ago
  It's a common system in other countries, though.
- temporarely 2y ago
  I find that rather offensive. Implication that what, moi can't think for myself or am a sock puppet? > "Speak ill of no man" Aha.
- sokoloff 2y ago
  The events leading up to it are far older than a few hours, giving people plenty of time to run different scenarios in their minds.
BurningFrog 2y ago
It's too late to organize that for this election.

lann 2y ago

Or actually radical: switch from our terrible first-past-the-post voting system to - say - ranked choice (or one of many alternatives; they're almost all better than fptp) and then primaries won't be so important and parties won't have so much power over our kinda-democratic-but-actually-oligarchic political system.

Aloisius 2y ago
California state primaries are top-2, not FPTP turning the general election into essentially a run-off. Parties still dominate. Same with my city elections which use RCV. I’m not sure why they would reduce party influence either. Features like being robust against spoilers would seem to most benefit major party candidates.
- lann 2y ago
  Top-2 is a primary system, not a voting system. When combined with (essentially a generalized version of) FPTP you get most of the same problems.
  - Aloisius 2y ago
    It's a two-round voting system. It is, by definition, not FPTP. There only functional difference between it and say, the original French two-round system that Maurice Duverger (of Duverger's law) contrasted with FPTP is that someone who wins an outright majority in the first election (an open "primary" in California) is not immediately elected. The fact the second round is FPTP doesn't change the overall voting system. With only two candidates for a single seat, most voting systems degenerate to FPTP, but none of the issues related to FPTP are present either (there are no clones, no strategic voting, etc.)
- aldonius 2y ago
  By more-or-less eliminating spoiler effect RCV actually benefits major and minor party candidates (and of course, voters!). For majors the benefit is clear: you don't get spoiled. For minors, you don't have to overcome the barrier of being a spoiler if the race looks remotely close. And of course voters are not disadvantaged just for having two acceptable choices rather than one.
tshaddox 2y ago
It would be kinda funny to keep the electoral college but change the ballots to ranked choice.
- LargeWu 2y ago
  There's no reason this couldn't happen. States have great latitude to determine their own election laws, including how they allocate electoral votes or elect federal offices. Nebraska and Maine can split their electoral votes. Georgia requries 50% + 1 for US Senate and Governor instead of a plurality, and will have a runoff election if no candidate gets a majority in the general election. Ranked choice would just be another method. The problem is that the two ruling parties have very little incentive to introduce this.
smegger001 2y ago
because we cant do that in the next 4 months as it would require a overwhelming enough demand from the electorate that a super majority of representatives in the house and senate along with the president would have to pass a constitutional amendment that is otherwise considered against their own interests, then it would need to be ratified by the states and pass through the inevitable challenges in the supreme court that seem dead set against anything resembleling democracy this year.
- lann 2y ago
  Nationally yes, but states can do it independently (piecemeal).

t43562 2y ago

This sometimes turns out very badly - in the UK it led to "faster than a lettuce goes bad" Liz Truss for example. Conservative party members are an odd bunch. Labour also picked Jeremy Corbyn an election back. Ultimately the rest of the country didn't want to vote for him.

znkynz 2y ago
Two party systems are the problem here, not the candidates
Macha 2y ago
Notably Corbyn actually got more votes than Starmer in both elections he ran - the change is more to do with the right vote being split between the conservatives and reform, the conservatives losing the centrist vote after the clown show of the last 5 years, and a unofficial pact between Labour/LibDems prevented splitting the centrist/left vote the same way the right vote was split.
- t43562 2y ago
  the fact that they were able to make that pact is probably because they're not miles apart and Corbyn couldn't get that to happen. e.g. I don't think I could ever have voted for him given his attitude on Ukraine but I could have voted for Starmer if that was what made sense in my area.
  - sudosysgen 2y ago
    Sure, but people like you weren't sufficient to change the fact that Corbyn still got more votes. The libdems of 2024 have a very different situation in that despite the Tory implosion they are weaker than ever. I'd put my money on them either still making the deal or getting buried if Labour had even more votes.
    - t43562 2y ago
      I think you could posit the opposite - that he lost because he motivated more people to vote against him. Labour now hasn't united its opposition because I think nobody fears it much.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

It's barely been a few hours yet I've seen this idea making the rounds. Seems manufactured.

qingcharles 2y ago
It's a common system in other countries, though.
temporarely 2y ago
I find that rather offensive. Implication that what, moi can't think for myself or am a sock puppet? > "Speak ill of no man" Aha.
sokoloff 2y ago
The events leading up to it are far older than a few hours, giving people plenty of time to run different scenarios in their minds.

BurningFrog 2y ago

It's too late to organize that for this election.