3 ms·

I don't get it how conscription is going to be compatible with all the values that EU/the West has been grown to respect and spread across the world: individual

I don't get it how conscription is going to be compatible with all the values that EU/the West has been grown to respect and spread across the world: individual freedom, freedom of cooperation, human rights and so on. Conscription goes against every one of them. I can see the problem, it's clearly there and maybe, yes, maybe conscription is the answer. My question still stands: how can a western society be healthy and prosperous with a mandatory service enforced on the population.

fifilura 2y ago
I live in Scandinavia. I never saw a conflict with those values. On the contrary, human rights is one of the values we have to defend. There is also a big chunk of collectivism here. You don't only have rights, you have responsibilities too. Paying tax is one of them, and defending your country is one. But my country had conscription up until 10-20 years ago so it is still in our DNA i guess. I myself did 15 months of (conscripted) military service. Long ago.
- egorfine 2y ago
  A country is a service organization that is collecting my taxes and spending that money to build roads. If my service organization does a poor job of building roads I can choose to pay taxes to a different organization on a different territory. Now this service org also wants to take a year of my life in my prime years. And it seems I cannot choose to not participate. I'm not sure how that is compatible with freedom. The paradox being that freedom needs defending and only totalitarian russia can afford to purchase soldiers, while free countries are now back of forcing its people to participate in the war mandatory. The irony.
  - fifilura 2y ago
    > If my service organization does a poor job of building roads I can choose to pay taxes to a different organization on a different territory. I can't choose to pay taxes in another country without emigrating. What are you trying to say?
    - egorfine 2y ago
      I mean by emigrating of course.
      - fifilura 2y ago
        I can avoid military service by emigrating. Still don't understand your point. Also, with the scale proposed in these countries it is in practice not really mandatory. If you don't want to you can say no. And certainly it is only a whole year if you are willing to serve that long.
        egorfine 2y ago
        > I can avoid military service by emigrating. This is something that I did not realize. If that works - perfect. > it is in practice not really mandatory This is what I was hoping for.
        fifilura 2y ago
        Yeah, i understand Ukraine has much stricter rules. Of course out of necessity, and things could change also here in case of such an emergency. But after all, the main point of a conscriptions (or any military) is not to kill Russians. It is to make sure they don't get the idea to come here in the first place. I am sorry this did not help Ukraine.
        gus_massa 2y ago
        It's ilegal to emigrate to avoid the draft. They will probably not make a Red Notice in Interpol, but if you ever want to return to meet your family you may get a fine or arrested and send to conscription. (Sometimes there are mass pardons after a few years, but it depends on the country.)
        fifilura 2y ago
        Not in Sweden, one of the countries the article refers to. https://www.pliktverket.se/monstring-och-varnplikt/monstring/monstringsunderlaget#svid12_7f5ae1d217955bd4d84d3f0 https://www.pliktverket.se/monstring-och-varnplikt/monstring...

fifilura 2y ago

I live in Scandinavia. I never saw a conflict with those values. On the contrary, human rights is one of the values we have to defend. There is also a big chunk of collectivism here. You don't only have rights, you have responsibilities too. Paying tax is one of them, and defending your country is one. But my country had conscription up until 10-20 years ago so it is still in our DNA i guess. I myself did 15 months of (conscripted) military service. Long ago.

egorfine 2y ago
A country is a service organization that is collecting my taxes and spending that money to build roads. If my service organization does a poor job of building roads I can choose to pay taxes to a different organization on a different territory. Now this service org also wants to take a year of my life in my prime years. And it seems I cannot choose to not participate. I'm not sure how that is compatible with freedom. The paradox being that freedom needs defending and only totalitarian russia can afford to purchase soldiers, while free countries are now back of forcing its people to participate in the war mandatory. The irony.
- fifilura 2y ago
  > If my service organization does a poor job of building roads I can choose to pay taxes to a different organization on a different territory. I can't choose to pay taxes in another country without emigrating. What are you trying to say?
  - egorfine 2y ago
    I mean by emigrating of course.
    - fifilura 2y ago
      I can avoid military service by emigrating. Still don't understand your point. Also, with the scale proposed in these countries it is in practice not really mandatory. If you don't want to you can say no. And certainly it is only a whole year if you are willing to serve that long.
      - egorfine 2y ago
        > I can avoid military service by emigrating. This is something that I did not realize. If that works - perfect. > it is in practice not really mandatory This is what I was hoping for.
        fifilura 2y ago
        Yeah, i understand Ukraine has much stricter rules. Of course out of necessity, and things could change also here in case of such an emergency. But after all, the main point of a conscriptions (or any military) is not to kill Russians. It is to make sure they don't get the idea to come here in the first place. I am sorry this did not help Ukraine.
      - gus_massa 2y ago
        It's ilegal to emigrate to avoid the draft. They will probably not make a Red Notice in Interpol, but if you ever want to return to meet your family you may get a fine or arrested and send to conscription. (Sometimes there are mass pardons after a few years, but it depends on the country.)
        fifilura 2y ago
        Not in Sweden, one of the countries the article refers to. https://www.pliktverket.se/monstring-och-varnplikt/monstring/monstringsunderlaget#svid12_7f5ae1d217955bd4d84d3f0 https://www.pliktverket.se/monstring-och-varnplikt/monstring...