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> the employee could reasonably conclude that it'd be silly for them to maintain a separate "personal" computer — and so would potentially sell any such devices

> the employee could reasonably conclude that it'd be silly for them to maintain a separate "personal" computer — and so would potentially sell any such devices What a bizarre leap of logic. Can Fedex employees reasonably sell their non-uniform clothes? Just because the employer in this scenario didn't 100% lock down the computer (which is a good thing because the alternative would be incredibly annoying for day-to-day work), doesn't mean the the employee can treat it as their own. Even from the privacy perspective, it would be pretty silly. Are you going to use the employer provided computer to apply to your next job?

derefr 2y ago
People do do it, though. Especially poor people, who might not use their personal computers very often. Also, many people don't own a separate "personal" computer in the first place. Especially, again, poor people. (I know many people who, if needing to use "a PC" for something, would go to a public library to use the computers there.) Not every job is a software dev position in the Bay Area, where everyone has enough disposable income to have a pile of old technology laying around. Many jobs for which you might be issued a work laptop still might not pay enough to get you above the poverty line. McDonald's managers are issued work laptops, for instance. (Also, disregarding economic class for a moment: in the modern day, most people who aren't in tech solve most of their computing problems by owning a smartphone, and so are unlikely to have a full PC at home. But their phone can't do everything, so if they have a work computer they happen to be sat in front of for hours each day — whether one issued to them, or a fixed workstation at work — then they'll default to doing their rare personal "productivity" tasks on that work computer. And yes, this does include updating their CV!) --- Maybe you can see it more clearly with the case of company cars. People sometimes don't own any other car (that actually works) until they get issued a company car; so they end up using their company car for everything. (Think especially: tradespeople using their company-logo-branded work box-truck for everything. Where I live, every third vehicle in any parking lot is one of those.) And people — especially poorer people — also often sell their personal vehicle when they are issued a company car, because this 1. releases them from the need to pay a lease + insurance on that vehicle, and 2. gets them possibly tens of thousands of dollars in a lump sum (that they don't need to immediately reinvest into another car, because they can now rely on the company car.)
- valicord 2y ago
  The point is that if you do do it, it's on you to understand the limitations of using someone else property. Just like the difference between rental vs owned housing. There are also fairly obvious differences between work-issued computers and all of your other analogies: 1. A car (and presumably the cyberpunk android body) is much more expensive than a computer, so the downside of owning both a personal and a work one is much higher. 2. A chair or a wheel chair doesn't need security monitoring because it's a chair (I guess you could come up with an incredibly convoluted scenario where it would make sense to put GPS tracking in a wheelchair, but come on). > just buys the person the chair. And then it's the employee's chair. It's not because there's a law against loaning chairs, it's because the chair is likely customized for a specific person and can't be reused. Or if you're talking about WFH scenarios, they just don't want to bother with return shipping.
  - derefr 2y ago
    No, it's the difference between owned housing vs renting from a landlord who is also your boss in a company town, where the landlord has a vested interest in e.g. preventing you from using your apartment to also do work for a competitor. Which is, again, a situation so shitty that we've outlawed it entirely! And then also imposed further regulations on regular, non-employer landlords, about what kinds of conditions they can impose on tenants. (E.g. in most jurisdictions, your landlord can't restrict you from having guests stay the night in your room.) Tenants' rights are actually a great analogy for what I'm talking about here. A company-issued laptop is very much like an apartment, in that you're "living in it" (literally and figuratively, respectively), and that you therefore should deserve certain rights to autonomous possession/use, privacy, freedom from restriction/compromise in use, etc. While you don't literally own an apartment you're renting, the law tries to, as much as possible, give tenants the rights of someone who does own that property; and to restrict the set of legal justifications that a landlord can use to punish someone for exercising those (temporary) rights over their property. IMHO having the equivalent of "tenants' rights" for something like a laptop is silly, because that'd be a lot of additional legal edifice for not-much gain. But, unlike with real-estate rental, it'd actually be quite practical to just make the "tenancy" case of company IT equipment use impossible/illegal — forcing employers to do something else instead — something that doesn't force employees into the sort of legal area that would make "tenants' rights" considerations applicable in the first place.

derefr 2y ago

People do do it, though. Especially poor people, who might not use their personal computers very often. Also, many people don't own a separate "personal" computer in the first place. Especially, again, poor people. (I know many people who, if needing to use "a PC" for something, would go to a public library to use the computers there.) Not every job is a software dev position in the Bay Area, where everyone has enough disposable income to have a pile of old technology laying around. Many jobs for which you might be issued a work laptop still might not pay enough to get you above the poverty line. McDonald's managers are issued work laptops, for instance. (Also, disregarding economic class for a moment: in the modern day, most people who aren't in tech solve most of their computing problems by owning a smartphone, and so are unlikely to have a full PC at home. But their phone can't do everything, so if they have a work computer they happen to be sat in front of for hours each day — whether one issued to them, or a fixed workstation at work — then they'll default to doing their rare personal "productivity" tasks on that work computer. And yes, this does include updating their CV!) --- Maybe you can see it more clearly with the case of company cars. People sometimes don't own any other car (that actually works) until they get issued a company car; so they end up using their company car for everything. (Think especially: tradespeople using their company-logo-branded work box-truck for everything. Where I live, every third vehicle in any parking lot is one of those.) And people — especially poorer people — also often sell their personal vehicle when they are issued a company car, because this 1. releases them from the need to pay a lease + insurance on that vehicle, and 2. gets them possibly tens of thousands of dollars in a lump sum (that they don't need to immediately reinvest into another car, because they can now rely on the company car.)

valicord 2y ago
The point is that if you do do it, it's on you to understand the limitations of using someone else property. Just like the difference between rental vs owned housing. There are also fairly obvious differences between work-issued computers and all of your other analogies: 1. A car (and presumably the cyberpunk android body) is much more expensive than a computer, so the downside of owning both a personal and a work one is much higher. 2. A chair or a wheel chair doesn't need security monitoring because it's a chair (I guess you could come up with an incredibly convoluted scenario where it would make sense to put GPS tracking in a wheelchair, but come on). > just buys the person the chair. And then it's the employee's chair. It's not because there's a law against loaning chairs, it's because the chair is likely customized for a specific person and can't be reused. Or if you're talking about WFH scenarios, they just don't want to bother with return shipping.
- derefr 2y ago
  No, it's the difference between owned housing vs renting from a landlord who is also your boss in a company town, where the landlord has a vested interest in e.g. preventing you from using your apartment to also do work for a competitor. Which is, again, a situation so shitty that we've outlawed it entirely! And then also imposed further regulations on regular, non-employer landlords, about what kinds of conditions they can impose on tenants. (E.g. in most jurisdictions, your landlord can't restrict you from having guests stay the night in your room.) Tenants' rights are actually a great analogy for what I'm talking about here. A company-issued laptop is very much like an apartment, in that you're "living in it" (literally and figuratively, respectively), and that you therefore should deserve certain rights to autonomous possession/use, privacy, freedom from restriction/compromise in use, etc. While you don't literally own an apartment you're renting, the law tries to, as much as possible, give tenants the rights of someone who does own that property; and to restrict the set of legal justifications that a landlord can use to punish someone for exercising those (temporary) rights over their property. IMHO having the equivalent of "tenants' rights" for something like a laptop is silly, because that'd be a lot of additional legal edifice for not-much gain. But, unlike with real-estate rental, it'd actually be quite practical to just make the "tenancy" case of company IT equipment use impossible/illegal — forcing employers to do something else instead — something that doesn't force employees into the sort of legal area that would make "tenants' rights" considerations applicable in the first place.