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> when something is intelligent then it should leave us no doubt that it is. I strongly disagree. There are many reasons we might not recognize its intelligenc

> when something is intelligent then it should leave us no doubt that it is. I strongly disagree. There are many reasons we might not recognize its intelligence, such as: - it operates on a different timescale than we do. - it operates at a different size scale than we do. - we don't understand its language, its methods, or its goals - Cartesian-like ideological blindness ("only humans have experience, all other things are automata, no matter how much they seem otherwise") Throughout human history, certain people have even managed to doubt the intelligence of other groups of humans.

YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
Except for "Cartesian blindness" (an interesting term) the situations where you say we wouldn't recognise intelligence are so far fantastical in the sense that they require a kind of intelligence that we can only imagine might exist outside the realm of our experience. But why should current debate have anything to do with all those situations? By analogy, suppose there exists a race of alien birds on a faraway planet that can fly in a way that we wouldn't recognise as flying. Perhaps they have an antigravity gland or poop exotic matter that sticks to their butts and lets them move around without touching the ground. Does that affect our ability to recognise flight when we see it on Earth? I don't think so. When you see e.g. an eagle, fly, you know it's flying, regardless of whether anything else is, or might be conceived as, flying, or not. Equally, does the possibility of an alien intelligence like no intelligence we have ever seen before make any difference to how we recognise intelligence here on Earth and right now? The debate is about the intelligence of computers. Should we consider the possibility that computers are about to develop an alien kind of intelligence like no intelligence we have ever seen? I know there's such a current of thought in various circles but it doesn't seem to be based on anything but wishful thinking (or dreadful thinking?). As to "Cartesian blindness" and racism etc - science is self-correcting. Even if we spend some time confused about what is and isn't intelligence, we get there in the end. The question is how we identify intelligence in the here and now, with what we know and understand about the world in the present.
- persnickety 2y ago
  I think it does matter that we admit other kinds of flying or intelligence because then we allow the possibility of having a blind spot. We already have alien intelligences on this planet that are not often getting invoked in discussions of the possible unfamiliarity of the difference of computers. Let's take the octopus distributed thinking or the hive's collective intelligence. They could shine a light on how computers do or don't work, yet how many people are holding the torch? I think self-correcting of science can be nice, but the acknowledge of racism operates on cultural scales of decades and centuries. The corrected discussions are likely to appear long after computer thinking breakthroughs which happen on the scale of years to decades. So you're right, but that doesn't matter today. But I admit I'm not sure if that's what you meant here.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    >> They could shine a light on how computers do or don't work, yet how many people are holding the torch? Scant few, unfortunately. I think in the AI community there is a general agreement that bees and ants have some kind of intelligence but I don't see anyone doing much about it, like using it as a model for AI (although note e.g. Ant Colony Optimisation and other biologically inspired algorithms). For example, I have seriously considered applying for funding for a project titled "Arthropod-Like Intelligence" that would seek to create an artificial agent (a robot of some sort) with autonomous capabilities at the level of a spider. Unfortunately, every time I start to write up the proposal I immediately imagine the ridicule it -and I- would be subjected to by any funding committee and fellow researchers in AI and I give up. So yes, the current agreement about what counts as intelligence is limiting to the advancement of science. But there is some progress, slow as it is- thanks to people bolder than myself. With octopi I think it's a different matter. People generally don't get to see how octopi behave. Once they're shown examples, like in videos etc, I think most are convinced. So it's more an element of surprise, rather than a real resistance to the idea. I think the debate is more on different aspects of let's say broader cognition, like self-awareness, the ability to feel pain, etc. Again I think the safe bet here is to adopt the default position that all animals are intelligent, self-aware and can feel pain, since there's no reason that humans should be special in that respect. But, really, it's not my field so my opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. >> The corrected discussions are likely to appear long after computer thinking breakthroughs which happen on the scale of years to decades. Yeah, unfortunately science takes a very long time. But it works in the end and there's no better way we know. I don't guess I have to argue about that though.

YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago

Except for "Cartesian blindness" (an interesting term) the situations where you say we wouldn't recognise intelligence are so far fantastical in the sense that they require a kind of intelligence that we can only imagine might exist outside the realm of our experience. But why should current debate have anything to do with all those situations? By analogy, suppose there exists a race of alien birds on a faraway planet that can fly in a way that we wouldn't recognise as flying. Perhaps they have an antigravity gland or poop exotic matter that sticks to their butts and lets them move around without touching the ground. Does that affect our ability to recognise flight when we see it on Earth? I don't think so. When you see e.g. an eagle, fly, you know it's flying, regardless of whether anything else is, or might be conceived as, flying, or not. Equally, does the possibility of an alien intelligence like no intelligence we have ever seen before make any difference to how we recognise intelligence here on Earth and right now? The debate is about the intelligence of computers. Should we consider the possibility that computers are about to develop an alien kind of intelligence like no intelligence we have ever seen? I know there's such a current of thought in various circles but it doesn't seem to be based on anything but wishful thinking (or dreadful thinking?). As to "Cartesian blindness" and racism etc - science is self-correcting. Even if we spend some time confused about what is and isn't intelligence, we get there in the end. The question is how we identify intelligence in the here and now, with what we know and understand about the world in the present.

persnickety 2y ago
I think it does matter that we admit other kinds of flying or intelligence because then we allow the possibility of having a blind spot. We already have alien intelligences on this planet that are not often getting invoked in discussions of the possible unfamiliarity of the difference of computers. Let's take the octopus distributed thinking or the hive's collective intelligence. They could shine a light on how computers do or don't work, yet how many people are holding the torch? I think self-correcting of science can be nice, but the acknowledge of racism operates on cultural scales of decades and centuries. The corrected discussions are likely to appear long after computer thinking breakthroughs which happen on the scale of years to decades. So you're right, but that doesn't matter today. But I admit I'm not sure if that's what you meant here.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
  >> They could shine a light on how computers do or don't work, yet how many people are holding the torch? Scant few, unfortunately. I think in the AI community there is a general agreement that bees and ants have some kind of intelligence but I don't see anyone doing much about it, like using it as a model for AI (although note e.g. Ant Colony Optimisation and other biologically inspired algorithms). For example, I have seriously considered applying for funding for a project titled "Arthropod-Like Intelligence" that would seek to create an artificial agent (a robot of some sort) with autonomous capabilities at the level of a spider. Unfortunately, every time I start to write up the proposal I immediately imagine the ridicule it -and I- would be subjected to by any funding committee and fellow researchers in AI and I give up. So yes, the current agreement about what counts as intelligence is limiting to the advancement of science. But there is some progress, slow as it is- thanks to people bolder than myself. With octopi I think it's a different matter. People generally don't get to see how octopi behave. Once they're shown examples, like in videos etc, I think most are convinced. So it's more an element of surprise, rather than a real resistance to the idea. I think the debate is more on different aspects of let's say broader cognition, like self-awareness, the ability to feel pain, etc. Again I think the safe bet here is to adopt the default position that all animals are intelligent, self-aware and can feel pain, since there's no reason that humans should be special in that respect. But, really, it's not my field so my opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. >> The corrected discussions are likely to appear long after computer thinking breakthroughs which happen on the scale of years to decades. Yeah, unfortunately science takes a very long time. But it works in the end and there's no better way we know. I don't guess I have to argue about that though.