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And yet the evidence of worker deaths due to lack of safety measures seems to imply that I am right. Maybe you haven’t much experience working on job sites. M

And yet the evidence of worker deaths due to lack of safety measures seems to imply that I am right. Maybe you haven’t much experience working on job sites. Maybe you’d know about subcontractors who don’t gaf or workers who are told to do something and they don’t listen. Maybe you’re just unaware of the facts of reality? Utopian fantasy is not real life.

snozolli 2y ago
Maybe you’d know about subcontractors who don’t gaf or workers who are told to do something and they don’t listen. As GP said: a safety supervisor on site overseeing the operation is also required You don't want to listen? No more job. You don't need cooperation, you need authority with incentives to act (i.e. stiff penalties).
dahart 2y ago
You are right about what? And why? The article clearly explained the worker deaths, and it was because company CEOs had chosen to avoid the mandated safety precautions (trench boxes) over cost concerns, and had chosen to not tell the workers about the safety requirements. They admitted it in many cases, and in some cases went to jail. The authors’ survey of trench fatalities found that company execs overwhelmingly had never planned to install trench boxes in the first place. There were no cases mentioned of trench boxes and heavy equipment being arranged and delivered, and of having individual workers instead decide not to install them. Are you aware of any, and are you accusing the article of some kind of bias? I already agreed with you and I’m aware that workers can make bad individual decisions, but that is not relevant here. We’re not talking about any and all construction safety, we’re talking about trenches and trench boxes. A few simple facts of reality that you might be ignoring that I’ve already mentioned are: 1- trench boxes require heavy equipment and advance planning; 2- the law requires a safety supervisor to ensure workers follow the plan. Neither of those is up to individual workers and cannot be undermined by individual workers. To your broader point (that doesn’t apply to trench boxes), workers only get away with stuff when the company doesn’t care enough. The company is paying, and has all authority to monitor and enforce any and all safety concerns, should they be sufficiently motivated.
- mindslight 2y ago
  I think one of the examples from the article did say there was a trench box on site sitting next to the trench, but it had not been installed. I would be very interested in the root cause analysis of why that didn't happen. I agree with you that "individual workers" aren't deciding whether to install trench boxes or not - it's definitely a multi person task, and therefore should under the direction of whomever is managing the operation. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the ultimate causes is something like one to several ton mini/small excavators are good at digging 8-10ft deep trenches, but nowhere near big enough to lift the appropriately sized trench boxes. (This obviously doesn't excuse it, rather just pointing out a possible terrible dynamic for a smaller operation).
  - dahart 2y ago
    I went back to look, and it seems you’re referring to the case in the article of WBW construction, which OSHA deemed to be willful and repeated company violations, and the accident in question was triggered by the foreman (father of one of the deceased) doing a “side cut” into the main trench. They said there were trench boxes (plural) onsite that the company had chosen not to install, so root cause doesn’t seem like a case of workers thwarting the construction safety plan, or of too-small diggers. Further down the article also discussed the evidence that the company may have essentially forged a statement by the foreman. We are only getting one view here, but considering that OHSA fined them and claims willful violation, and that there is evidence of multiple wrongs in the case, it all seems to support the summary that the company is solely responsible and culpable, right?
    - mindslight 2y ago
      > it all seems to support the summary that the company is solely responsible and culpable, right? No. You're jumping to conclusions that you seemingly think support your goal, but actually do the exact opposite. From the legal perspective, the company being "solely responsible" would mean the owners and management of the company would get to declare bankruptcy of the company and walk away (free to set up a new company). Small construction companies generally don't have very many assets, so it would also hinder the families of the dead getting compensation. And from the perspective of wanting to prevent collapses happening in the future, solely blaming "the company" is essentially concluding "nobody's fault" - companies don't actually do things, people to do. My comment was focused on trying to look at all of the contributing causes, which is generally how we improve processes so that these failures don't happen. There are many comments talking about the dynamics that lead individuals to eschew personal PPE. But with trench boxes, it's not really up to an individual whether to install their own trench box or not. So I was attempting to visit the group dynamics and incentives that affect whether trench boxes end up getting installed.

snozolli 2y ago

Maybe you’d know about subcontractors who don’t gaf or workers who are told to do something and they don’t listen. As GP said: a safety supervisor on site overseeing the operation is also required You don't want to listen? No more job. You don't need cooperation, you need authority with incentives to act (i.e. stiff penalties).

dahart 2y ago

You are right about what? And why? The article clearly explained the worker deaths, and it was because company CEOs had chosen to avoid the mandated safety precautions (trench boxes) over cost concerns, and had chosen to not tell the workers about the safety requirements. They admitted it in many cases, and in some cases went to jail. The authors’ survey of trench fatalities found that company execs overwhelmingly had never planned to install trench boxes in the first place. There were no cases mentioned of trench boxes and heavy equipment being arranged and delivered, and of having individual workers instead decide not to install them. Are you aware of any, and are you accusing the article of some kind of bias? I already agreed with you and I’m aware that workers can make bad individual decisions, but that is not relevant here. We’re not talking about any and all construction safety, we’re talking about trenches and trench boxes. A few simple facts of reality that you might be ignoring that I’ve already mentioned are: 1- trench boxes require heavy equipment and advance planning; 2- the law requires a safety supervisor to ensure workers follow the plan. Neither of those is up to individual workers and cannot be undermined by individual workers. To your broader point (that doesn’t apply to trench boxes), workers only get away with stuff when the company doesn’t care enough. The company is paying, and has all authority to monitor and enforce any and all safety concerns, should they be sufficiently motivated.

mindslight 2y ago
I think one of the examples from the article did say there was a trench box on site sitting next to the trench, but it had not been installed. I would be very interested in the root cause analysis of why that didn't happen. I agree with you that "individual workers" aren't deciding whether to install trench boxes or not - it's definitely a multi person task, and therefore should under the direction of whomever is managing the operation. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the ultimate causes is something like one to several ton mini/small excavators are good at digging 8-10ft deep trenches, but nowhere near big enough to lift the appropriately sized trench boxes. (This obviously doesn't excuse it, rather just pointing out a possible terrible dynamic for a smaller operation).
- dahart 2y ago
  I went back to look, and it seems you’re referring to the case in the article of WBW construction, which OSHA deemed to be willful and repeated company violations, and the accident in question was triggered by the foreman (father of one of the deceased) doing a “side cut” into the main trench. They said there were trench boxes (plural) onsite that the company had chosen not to install, so root cause doesn’t seem like a case of workers thwarting the construction safety plan, or of too-small diggers. Further down the article also discussed the evidence that the company may have essentially forged a statement by the foreman. We are only getting one view here, but considering that OHSA fined them and claims willful violation, and that there is evidence of multiple wrongs in the case, it all seems to support the summary that the company is solely responsible and culpable, right?
  - mindslight 2y ago
    > it all seems to support the summary that the company is solely responsible and culpable, right? No. You're jumping to conclusions that you seemingly think support your goal, but actually do the exact opposite. From the legal perspective, the company being "solely responsible" would mean the owners and management of the company would get to declare bankruptcy of the company and walk away (free to set up a new company). Small construction companies generally don't have very many assets, so it would also hinder the families of the dead getting compensation. And from the perspective of wanting to prevent collapses happening in the future, solely blaming "the company" is essentially concluding "nobody's fault" - companies don't actually do things, people to do. My comment was focused on trying to look at all of the contributing causes, which is generally how we improve processes so that these failures don't happen. There are many comments talking about the dynamics that lead individuals to eschew personal PPE. But with trench boxes, it's not really up to an individual whether to install their own trench box or not. So I was attempting to visit the group dynamics and incentives that affect whether trench boxes end up getting installed.