4 ms·

Individual workers at job sites decide what they do, from how to build to what safety gear they use. Project managers and engineers give instructions but worke

Individual workers at job sites decide what they do, from how to build to what safety gear they use. Project managers and engineers give instructions but workers can and do ignore them and do whatever they want.

Jgrubb 2y ago
Yeah ok buddy, every job site everywhere is just anarchy. We have no idea how bridges and skyscrapers get built, really.
dahart 2y ago
It seems like you didn’t understand the distinction between PPE and the project plan for trench boxes. In the case of PPE, the company is providing the safety equipment and asking workers to use it. Yes it’s true that some workers choose not to use ear plugs, glasses, harnesses, etc. (often because the PPE is uncomfortable.) In the case of trench boxes, companies have to keep the information away from workers in order to prevent their use, and the article cites multiple examples of that occurring. Trench boxes require company action and expenditure in advance of construction that is not up to individual workers. When the contractor rents or orders a trench box, delivers it to the site, arranges for the excavator, or even a crane for larger operations, and lays out the construction plan, there is no such thing as ignoring it. Just in case you missed it in the article, not only are trench boxes required by law in the US, a safety supervisor on site overseeing the operation is also required. The laws were written to prevent individual workers from being able to ignore the construction safety plan, and require company oversight. The only way it gets ignored is from the top.
- newsclues 2y ago
  And yet the evidence of worker deaths due to lack of safety measures seems to imply that I am right. Maybe you haven’t much experience working on job sites. Maybe you’d know about subcontractors who don’t gaf or workers who are told to do something and they don’t listen. Maybe you’re just unaware of the facts of reality? Utopian fantasy is not real life.
  - snozolli 2y ago
    Maybe you’d know about subcontractors who don’t gaf or workers who are told to do something and they don’t listen. As GP said: a safety supervisor on site overseeing the operation is also required You don't want to listen? No more job. You don't need cooperation, you need authority with incentives to act (i.e. stiff penalties).
  - dahart 2y ago
    You are right about what? And why? The article clearly explained the worker deaths, and it was because company CEOs had chosen to avoid the mandated safety precautions (trench boxes) over cost concerns, and had chosen to not tell the workers about the safety requirements. They admitted it in many cases, and in some cases went to jail. The authors’ survey of trench fatalities found that company execs overwhelmingly had never planned to install trench boxes in the first place. There were no cases mentioned of trench boxes and heavy equipment being arranged and delivered, and of having individual workers instead decide not to install them. Are you aware of any, and are you accusing the article of some kind of bias? I already agreed with you and I’m aware that workers can make bad individual decisions, but that is not relevant here. We’re not talking about any and all construction safety, we’re talking about trenches and trench boxes. A few simple facts of reality that you might be ignoring that I’ve already mentioned are: 1- trench boxes require heavy equipment and advance planning; 2- the law requires a safety supervisor to ensure workers follow the plan. Neither of those is up to individual workers and cannot be undermined by individual workers. To your broader point (that doesn’t apply to trench boxes), workers only get away with stuff when the company doesn’t care enough. The company is paying, and has all authority to monitor and enforce any and all safety concerns, should they be sufficiently motivated.
    - mindslight 2y ago
      I think one of the examples from the article did say there was a trench box on site sitting next to the trench, but it had not been installed. I would be very interested in the root cause analysis of why that didn't happen. I agree with you that "individual workers" aren't deciding whether to install trench boxes or not - it's definitely a multi person task, and therefore should under the direction of whomever is managing the operation. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the ultimate causes is something like one to several ton mini/small excavators are good at digging 8-10ft deep trenches, but nowhere near big enough to lift the appropriately sized trench boxes. (This obviously doesn't excuse it, rather just pointing out a possible terrible dynamic for a smaller operation).

Jgrubb 2y ago

Yeah ok buddy, every job site everywhere is just anarchy. We have no idea how bridges and skyscrapers get built, really.

dahart 2y ago

It seems like you didn’t understand the distinction between PPE and the project plan for trench boxes. In the case of PPE, the company is providing the safety equipment and asking workers to use it. Yes it’s true that some workers choose not to use ear plugs, glasses, harnesses, etc. (often because the PPE is uncomfortable.) In the case of trench boxes, companies have to keep the information away from workers in order to prevent their use, and the article cites multiple examples of that occurring. Trench boxes require company action and expenditure in advance of construction that is not up to individual workers. When the contractor rents or orders a trench box, delivers it to the site, arranges for the excavator, or even a crane for larger operations, and lays out the construction plan, there is no such thing as ignoring it. Just in case you missed it in the article, not only are trench boxes required by law in the US, a safety supervisor on site overseeing the operation is also required. The laws were written to prevent individual workers from being able to ignore the construction safety plan, and require company oversight. The only way it gets ignored is from the top.

newsclues 2y ago
And yet the evidence of worker deaths due to lack of safety measures seems to imply that I am right. Maybe you haven’t much experience working on job sites. Maybe you’d know about subcontractors who don’t gaf or workers who are told to do something and they don’t listen. Maybe you’re just unaware of the facts of reality? Utopian fantasy is not real life.
- snozolli 2y ago
  Maybe you’d know about subcontractors who don’t gaf or workers who are told to do something and they don’t listen. As GP said: a safety supervisor on site overseeing the operation is also required You don't want to listen? No more job. You don't need cooperation, you need authority with incentives to act (i.e. stiff penalties).
- dahart 2y ago
  You are right about what? And why? The article clearly explained the worker deaths, and it was because company CEOs had chosen to avoid the mandated safety precautions (trench boxes) over cost concerns, and had chosen to not tell the workers about the safety requirements. They admitted it in many cases, and in some cases went to jail. The authors’ survey of trench fatalities found that company execs overwhelmingly had never planned to install trench boxes in the first place. There were no cases mentioned of trench boxes and heavy equipment being arranged and delivered, and of having individual workers instead decide not to install them. Are you aware of any, and are you accusing the article of some kind of bias? I already agreed with you and I’m aware that workers can make bad individual decisions, but that is not relevant here. We’re not talking about any and all construction safety, we’re talking about trenches and trench boxes. A few simple facts of reality that you might be ignoring that I’ve already mentioned are: 1- trench boxes require heavy equipment and advance planning; 2- the law requires a safety supervisor to ensure workers follow the plan. Neither of those is up to individual workers and cannot be undermined by individual workers. To your broader point (that doesn’t apply to trench boxes), workers only get away with stuff when the company doesn’t care enough. The company is paying, and has all authority to monitor and enforce any and all safety concerns, should they be sufficiently motivated.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    I think one of the examples from the article did say there was a trench box on site sitting next to the trench, but it had not been installed. I would be very interested in the root cause analysis of why that didn't happen. I agree with you that "individual workers" aren't deciding whether to install trench boxes or not - it's definitely a multi person task, and therefore should under the direction of whomever is managing the operation. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the ultimate causes is something like one to several ton mini/small excavators are good at digging 8-10ft deep trenches, but nowhere near big enough to lift the appropriately sized trench boxes. (This obviously doesn't excuse it, rather just pointing out a possible terrible dynamic for a smaller operation).