3 ms·

Are you saying that the massive multi-decade US sanctions had no impact?

by brookst 2y ago

dingnuts 2y ago
[flagged]
- cardanome 2y ago
  Cuba is the only socialist country currently. Maybe North Korea if you close one and a half eyes. China has long gone capitalist.
  - kgwgk 2y ago
    China also self-identifies as a socialist state - like Laos and Vietnam. No need to hurt their feelings.
    - cardanome 2y ago
      They don't. Official ideology is that they a going through a temporary capitalist phase and will switch to socialism once they developed enough to do so. Obviously they wont. It was just a tactic to avoid the chaos of the fall of the Soviet Union while still changing out the economic system. Keeping political stability while allowing the people in power in enrich themselves thanks to capitalism.
      - kgwgk 2y ago
        Q: What does the CCP think about that? A: We respond that socialism with Chinese characteristics is socialism Full quote: Some have called our road "Social Capitalism", others "State Capitalism", and yet others "Technocratic Capitalism". These are all completely wrong. We respond that socialism with Chinese characteristics is socialism, by which we mean that despite reform we adhere to the socialist road – our road, our theory, our system, and the goals we set out at the 18th National Party Congress. ... Socialism with Chinese characteristics is the dialectical unity of the theoretical logic of scientific socialism and the historical logic of China's social development. It's scientific socialism rooted in Chinese realities, reflecting the will of Chinese people, and adapted to the requirements of China and its circumstances. — Xi Jinping, speech to the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party, 5 January 2013[5] Q: What does the Constitution say? A: Article 1 The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants. The socialist system is the basic system of the People's Republic of China. Disruption of the socialist system by any organization or individual is prohibited. From the preamble: After the founding of the People's Republic, China gradually achieved its transition from a New-Democratic to a socialist society. The socialist transformation of the private ownership of the means of production was completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished and the socialist system established. [...] China will be in the primary stage of socialism for a long time to come.
        cardanome 2y ago
        You have to read between the lines with those things. Note that "adhering to socialism" is not the same as having a socialist economy. Also being on the "socialist road" implies a process, not that they are already there. Also you left out an important part in your first quote > and the goals we set out at the 18th National Party Congress. This includes building a socialist market economy;[..] You might as well translate "socialist market economy" as capitalism with red flags. There is no market economy under socialism, that is the whole point. No one in their right mind thinks China has a socialist economy. These people have decades of experience twisting ideology to whatever they want to do. Though Xi is whole bit less liberal than his predecessors. Some do argue that he plans to bring China back to a more socialist course but I am not sure about it. Personally, I think the growing socialist rhetoric is mostly a reaction to the growing wealth inequality and other problem in China.
        kgwgk 2y ago
        When the first words in the first article in their constitution state that > The People's Republic of China is a socialist state it seems warranted to say that China self-identifies as a socialist state. You're of course free [*] to say that China does not self-identify as a socialist state. I don't particularly care. [*] As long as you don't put that in a banner in Tiananmen Square, I guess.
stale2002 2y ago
They are saying that if the many ways that socialist countries have failed, there is always a hundred different excuses for why that specific example of failure doesn't "count". If your system is incapable of dealing with any sort of adversity, then that is failure of the system. All countries around the world have problems. And yet, most countries are able to deal with them. Unlikely, apparently, every major socialist country.
- grugagag 2y ago
  Most countries have an incredible amount of debt and have nothing to show for it. Moreover, the borrowed money accumulated in high proportion only in a handful of pockets, leaving behind a flimsy corrupted society.
- cardanome 2y ago
  What capitalist country would be able to deal with this level of sanctions that Cuba experiences? People hoped that even such a huge capitalist country like Russia would fall after sanctions. Granted, did not work out because Russia found alternative allies in China and Iran but the idea that capitalist countries can just eat up sanctions like nothing is insane. Otherwise sanctions wouldn't be a political tool to begin with. Lots of capitalist African countries have people just starving on mass and that is despite having free access to markets and despite western countries not only not sabotaging them but on the contrary providing development aid. But you will tell me how that is "not real capitalism" and how they are doing it wrong. Real capitalism is just the few rich Western Nations, we don't talk about the losers. Communist revolutions tend to happen in the poorest countries on earth and they face adversity on every step of the way. That they even manage to survive shows how resilient socialism is.
  - stale2002 2y ago
    You didn't respond to anything that I said. What I said is that there is always an excuse for every single failed socialist country and that this is indicative of a problem with that system. It is every last one of them. There are zero real successes. > But you will tell me how that is "not real capitalism" At no point did I claim that capitalism always suceeds. I merely claim that some successes do exist. The same is not true for socialism. There are no successes anywhere, and there is always 100 excuses for why those failures don't count.
lr4444lr 2y ago
No: that free trade, low tariffs, and low export restrictions - free market principles - are implicitly championed by the supporters of insular, low freedom regimes that receive plaudits just because they had revolutionaries who promised free health care, university and the like, and they think these free trade principles happen in a vacuum. I'm not pretending the USA doesn't meddle destructively or that Battista was some saint, but multidecade single party rule of Castro was an objective failure, along with the other Socialist regimes of the 20th century. The track record sucks. Time to face facts.

Are you saying that the massive multi-decade US sanctions had no impact?

dingnuts 2y ago

[flagged]

cardanome 2y ago
Cuba is the only socialist country currently. Maybe North Korea if you close one and a half eyes. China has long gone capitalist.
- kgwgk 2y ago
  China also self-identifies as a socialist state - like Laos and Vietnam. No need to hurt their feelings.
  - cardanome 2y ago
    They don't. Official ideology is that they a going through a temporary capitalist phase and will switch to socialism once they developed enough to do so. Obviously they wont. It was just a tactic to avoid the chaos of the fall of the Soviet Union while still changing out the economic system. Keeping political stability while allowing the people in power in enrich themselves thanks to capitalism.
    - kgwgk 2y ago
      Q: What does the CCP think about that? A: We respond that socialism with Chinese characteristics is socialism Full quote: Some have called our road "Social Capitalism", others "State Capitalism", and yet others "Technocratic Capitalism". These are all completely wrong. We respond that socialism with Chinese characteristics is socialism, by which we mean that despite reform we adhere to the socialist road – our road, our theory, our system, and the goals we set out at the 18th National Party Congress. ... Socialism with Chinese characteristics is the dialectical unity of the theoretical logic of scientific socialism and the historical logic of China's social development. It's scientific socialism rooted in Chinese realities, reflecting the will of Chinese people, and adapted to the requirements of China and its circumstances. — Xi Jinping, speech to the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party, 5 January 2013[5] Q: What does the Constitution say? A: Article 1 The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants. The socialist system is the basic system of the People's Republic of China. Disruption of the socialist system by any organization or individual is prohibited. From the preamble: After the founding of the People's Republic, China gradually achieved its transition from a New-Democratic to a socialist society. The socialist transformation of the private ownership of the means of production was completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished and the socialist system established. [...] China will be in the primary stage of socialism for a long time to come.
      - cardanome 2y ago
        You have to read between the lines with those things. Note that "adhering to socialism" is not the same as having a socialist economy. Also being on the "socialist road" implies a process, not that they are already there. Also you left out an important part in your first quote > and the goals we set out at the 18th National Party Congress. This includes building a socialist market economy;[..] You might as well translate "socialist market economy" as capitalism with red flags. There is no market economy under socialism, that is the whole point. No one in their right mind thinks China has a socialist economy. These people have decades of experience twisting ideology to whatever they want to do. Though Xi is whole bit less liberal than his predecessors. Some do argue that he plans to bring China back to a more socialist course but I am not sure about it. Personally, I think the growing socialist rhetoric is mostly a reaction to the growing wealth inequality and other problem in China.
        kgwgk 2y ago
        When the first words in the first article in their constitution state that > The People's Republic of China is a socialist state it seems warranted to say that China self-identifies as a socialist state. You're of course free [*] to say that China does not self-identify as a socialist state. I don't particularly care. [*] As long as you don't put that in a banner in Tiananmen Square, I guess.

stale2002 2y ago

They are saying that if the many ways that socialist countries have failed, there is always a hundred different excuses for why that specific example of failure doesn't "count". If your system is incapable of dealing with any sort of adversity, then that is failure of the system. All countries around the world have problems. And yet, most countries are able to deal with them. Unlikely, apparently, every major socialist country.

grugagag 2y ago
Most countries have an incredible amount of debt and have nothing to show for it. Moreover, the borrowed money accumulated in high proportion only in a handful of pockets, leaving behind a flimsy corrupted society.
cardanome 2y ago
What capitalist country would be able to deal with this level of sanctions that Cuba experiences? People hoped that even such a huge capitalist country like Russia would fall after sanctions. Granted, did not work out because Russia found alternative allies in China and Iran but the idea that capitalist countries can just eat up sanctions like nothing is insane. Otherwise sanctions wouldn't be a political tool to begin with. Lots of capitalist African countries have people just starving on mass and that is despite having free access to markets and despite western countries not only not sabotaging them but on the contrary providing development aid. But you will tell me how that is "not real capitalism" and how they are doing it wrong. Real capitalism is just the few rich Western Nations, we don't talk about the losers. Communist revolutions tend to happen in the poorest countries on earth and they face adversity on every step of the way. That they even manage to survive shows how resilient socialism is.
- stale2002 2y ago
  You didn't respond to anything that I said. What I said is that there is always an excuse for every single failed socialist country and that this is indicative of a problem with that system. It is every last one of them. There are zero real successes. > But you will tell me how that is "not real capitalism" At no point did I claim that capitalism always suceeds. I merely claim that some successes do exist. The same is not true for socialism. There are no successes anywhere, and there is always 100 excuses for why those failures don't count.

lr4444lr 2y ago

No: that free trade, low tariffs, and low export restrictions - free market principles - are implicitly championed by the supporters of insular, low freedom regimes that receive plaudits just because they had revolutionaries who promised free health care, university and the like, and they think these free trade principles happen in a vacuum. I'm not pretending the USA doesn't meddle destructively or that Battista was some saint, but multidecade single party rule of Castro was an objective failure, along with the other Socialist regimes of the 20th century. The track record sucks. Time to face facts.