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How has the policy failed? The regime is completely destitute. If we use China as the counterfactual, imagine the disaster of having a rich dictatorship aligned

How has the policy failed? The regime is completely destitute. If we use China as the counterfactual, imagine the disaster of having a rich dictatorship aligned with our enemies right at our border. Your mindset is that Cuban suffering is because of US sanctions. How about having the mindset of the leaders looting the country causing Cuban suffering? As someone that is self-admittedly a leftist, why do you put 0 agency or blame on the leaders of Cuba? All they need to do to have trade with the US is to have free and open elections.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
You didn't read what I wrote above, you're just creating a strawman out of me. Go get your own thread to grouse on if that's what you're going to do. I said exactly what you said: the regime is fucked and the economy will suck and things will be oppressive even without the sanctions. But they use the sanctions to legitimize themselves. I've heard it directly from Cuban apologists... And in the meantime Cubans suffer. Regime change via sanctions isn't going to work. 50 years of evidence can show you that. So what are they for? Removing the sanctions removes one excuse among many that the dictatorship uses. This isn't China. It's a tin-pot dictatorship on a tiny island right off the US, dependent on tourism.
- brigadier132 2y ago
  Where you and i disagree is that regime change is the sole goal of these sanctions. The purpose is to not help an enemy. As for your argument around legitimacy, it does not matter. They will find an excuse to legitimize the government no matter what. See what venezuela did when we still had relations with their government. All this talk of legitimacy actually just does not matter. Cuban people know their government sucks and if they havent realized it already they are too deep in the propaganda to ever be convinced edit: Also out of curiosity, if this was a fascist dictatorship on the border would you advocate free trade?
tsimionescu 2y ago
> All they need to do to have trade with the US is to have free and open elections. That is truly hilarious. There are numerous countries, especially in Latin America, that can tell you a story or two about what happens when free and open elections fail to lead to the USA's chosen candidate winning. It's not sanctions being lifted, that's for sure.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  Not to mention the US has made it very clear that it wants all confiscated property (from, uh [does math] 60-70 years ago) returned. Free elections won't do shit to satisfy prominent ex-pat groups.
- brigadier132 2y ago
  Your point is a few decades out of date. If Cuba became democratic the US would reestablish relations.
  - hollandheese 2y ago
    Tell that to Bolivia.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    No, it would not. Cuba has been a thorn in the USA's side since Teddy Roosevelt. I guarantee you that 200 years of history would not suddenly change if Cuba, say, democratically elected a pro-Russian socialist. Also,the USA cares absolutely nothing about democracy in their partners. Never has, still doesn't. One of the USA's biggest curent allies is Saudi Arabia, one of the least democratic nations on Earth.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago

You didn't read what I wrote above, you're just creating a strawman out of me. Go get your own thread to grouse on if that's what you're going to do. I said exactly what you said: the regime is fucked and the economy will suck and things will be oppressive even without the sanctions. But they use the sanctions to legitimize themselves. I've heard it directly from Cuban apologists... And in the meantime Cubans suffer. Regime change via sanctions isn't going to work. 50 years of evidence can show you that. So what are they for? Removing the sanctions removes one excuse among many that the dictatorship uses. This isn't China. It's a tin-pot dictatorship on a tiny island right off the US, dependent on tourism.

brigadier132 2y ago
Where you and i disagree is that regime change is the sole goal of these sanctions. The purpose is to not help an enemy. As for your argument around legitimacy, it does not matter. They will find an excuse to legitimize the government no matter what. See what venezuela did when we still had relations with their government. All this talk of legitimacy actually just does not matter. Cuban people know their government sucks and if they havent realized it already they are too deep in the propaganda to ever be convinced edit: Also out of curiosity, if this was a fascist dictatorship on the border would you advocate free trade?

tsimionescu 2y ago

> All they need to do to have trade with the US is to have free and open elections. That is truly hilarious. There are numerous countries, especially in Latin America, that can tell you a story or two about what happens when free and open elections fail to lead to the USA's chosen candidate winning. It's not sanctions being lifted, that's for sure.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
Not to mention the US has made it very clear that it wants all confiscated property (from, uh [does math] 60-70 years ago) returned. Free elections won't do shit to satisfy prominent ex-pat groups.
brigadier132 2y ago
Your point is a few decades out of date. If Cuba became democratic the US would reestablish relations.
- hollandheese 2y ago
  Tell that to Bolivia.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  No, it would not. Cuba has been a thorn in the USA's side since Teddy Roosevelt. I guarantee you that 200 years of history would not suddenly change if Cuba, say, democratically elected a pro-Russian socialist. Also,the USA cares absolutely nothing about democracy in their partners. Never has, still doesn't. One of the USA's biggest curent allies is Saudi Arabia, one of the least democratic nations on Earth.