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I used to have more sympathy for this position, and my political biases are strongly left wing, but having spent time in Cuba on and off for the last 20 years..

I used to have more sympathy for this position, and my political biases are strongly left wing, but having spent time in Cuba on and off for the last 20 years... time has shown just how incompetent and malevolent the Cuban regime is. It would suck badly there without the sanctions, too. Though I think the sanctions give the regime an excuse. Obama was right to start to lift restrictions... a decade of continued stagnation even after the sanctions lifted would have undermined the regime's ability to continue to rule more than anything else.

safety1st 2y ago
Would it have really? I'm not particularly up to speed on the situation in Cuba, but there are a lot of awful regimes on this planet that remain in power simply because they have all the guns. These regimes are unpopular, they govern poorly, but no one can do anything about it, because the guns, tanks and soldiers are all under their control, and they've decided that a peaceful transition of power is not an option they wish to entertain. It's entirely possible for this to be a stable state that lasts for a lifetime.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  The Cuban regime has been able to produce an aura of legitimacy around itself through its history of resistance to US imperialism, or that's how it's framed, whether you take that at face value or how you interpret it is up to you. If the brutal ugly side of US imperialism (in the form of military aggression or intense actually-illegal unitary sanctions etc) goes away, so does the legitimacy. People will be asking "why" they can't buy basic consumer goods, and the answer will not be believable in the slightest. Cuba is not North Korea. It's not isolated in that way. Nor does it have a Juche style cult of self-reliance. It is heavily dependent on tourism for its economy. Even its official communist ideology emphasizes internationalist linkages and outlook. The sanctions are counterproductive and unjust.
  - brigadier132 2y ago
    The only people who find the Cuban regime legitimate would find an excuse to promote its legitimacy with or without sanctions. Trade would benefit the government of Cuba as it did with China and helping nations with totalitarian dictatorships is a failed strategy. As the communists like to say "The capitalists will sell us our pitchforks". No, we don't have to.
    - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      Complete nonsense. The policy has failed. The regime is still there after over half a century. Meanwhile the Cuban people suffer. Maybe those words make you feel smart or strong or reinforce your ideological positions... but they're bad policy. Unless you cover your eyes and ignore evidence.
      - brigadier132 2y ago
        How has the policy failed? The regime is completely destitute. If we use China as the counterfactual, imagine the disaster of having a rich dictatorship aligned with our enemies right at our border. Your mindset is that Cuban suffering is because of US sanctions. How about having the mindset of the leaders looting the country causing Cuban suffering? As someone that is self-admittedly a leftist, why do you put 0 agency or blame on the leaders of Cuba? All they need to do to have trade with the US is to have free and open elections.
        cmrdporcupine 2y ago
        You didn't read what I wrote above, you're just creating a strawman out of me. Go get your own thread to grouse on if that's what you're going to do. I said exactly what you said: the regime is fucked and the economy will suck and things will be oppressive even without the sanctions. But they use the sanctions to legitimize themselves. I've heard it directly from Cuban apologists... And in the meantime Cubans suffer. Regime change via sanctions isn't going to work. 50 years of evidence can show you that. So what are they for? Removing the sanctions removes one excuse among many that the dictatorship uses. This isn't China. It's a tin-pot dictatorship on a tiny island right off the US, dependent on tourism.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  >> a stable state that lasts for a lifetime. This particular stable state has lasted more than a lifetime. The average age in Cuba is 40, which while higher than many countries still means that the average Cuban has no living memory of any of the events that lead to the sanctions, much less could they have participated in them.
dangus 2y ago
If we assume that sanctions are the major barrier to Cuba's prosperity, a competent government that governed with the best interest of its people in mind would have been working for the past half century to try and convince the United States to lift those sanctions. You would think that being less than 500 miles off the coast of Florida that Cuba would want to have strong relations with the USA rather than Russia over 6,000 miles away. The Soviet Union fell in 1991. It should have been clear since then which horse Cuba should be betting on. Cuba has had 33 years to figure out that their revolution was dead. Their lack of success warming up relations with the USA and their failure to do so is on them.

safety1st 2y ago

Would it have really? I'm not particularly up to speed on the situation in Cuba, but there are a lot of awful regimes on this planet that remain in power simply because they have all the guns. These regimes are unpopular, they govern poorly, but no one can do anything about it, because the guns, tanks and soldiers are all under their control, and they've decided that a peaceful transition of power is not an option they wish to entertain. It's entirely possible for this to be a stable state that lasts for a lifetime.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
The Cuban regime has been able to produce an aura of legitimacy around itself through its history of resistance to US imperialism, or that's how it's framed, whether you take that at face value or how you interpret it is up to you. If the brutal ugly side of US imperialism (in the form of military aggression or intense actually-illegal unitary sanctions etc) goes away, so does the legitimacy. People will be asking "why" they can't buy basic consumer goods, and the answer will not be believable in the slightest. Cuba is not North Korea. It's not isolated in that way. Nor does it have a Juche style cult of self-reliance. It is heavily dependent on tourism for its economy. Even its official communist ideology emphasizes internationalist linkages and outlook. The sanctions are counterproductive and unjust.
- brigadier132 2y ago
  The only people who find the Cuban regime legitimate would find an excuse to promote its legitimacy with or without sanctions. Trade would benefit the government of Cuba as it did with China and helping nations with totalitarian dictatorships is a failed strategy. As the communists like to say "The capitalists will sell us our pitchforks". No, we don't have to.
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    Complete nonsense. The policy has failed. The regime is still there after over half a century. Meanwhile the Cuban people suffer. Maybe those words make you feel smart or strong or reinforce your ideological positions... but they're bad policy. Unless you cover your eyes and ignore evidence.
    - brigadier132 2y ago
      How has the policy failed? The regime is completely destitute. If we use China as the counterfactual, imagine the disaster of having a rich dictatorship aligned with our enemies right at our border. Your mindset is that Cuban suffering is because of US sanctions. How about having the mindset of the leaders looting the country causing Cuban suffering? As someone that is self-admittedly a leftist, why do you put 0 agency or blame on the leaders of Cuba? All they need to do to have trade with the US is to have free and open elections.
      - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
        You didn't read what I wrote above, you're just creating a strawman out of me. Go get your own thread to grouse on if that's what you're going to do. I said exactly what you said: the regime is fucked and the economy will suck and things will be oppressive even without the sanctions. But they use the sanctions to legitimize themselves. I've heard it directly from Cuban apologists... And in the meantime Cubans suffer. Regime change via sanctions isn't going to work. 50 years of evidence can show you that. So what are they for? Removing the sanctions removes one excuse among many that the dictatorship uses. This isn't China. It's a tin-pot dictatorship on a tiny island right off the US, dependent on tourism.
sandworm101 2y ago
>> a stable state that lasts for a lifetime. This particular stable state has lasted more than a lifetime. The average age in Cuba is 40, which while higher than many countries still means that the average Cuban has no living memory of any of the events that lead to the sanctions, much less could they have participated in them.

dangus 2y ago

If we assume that sanctions are the major barrier to Cuba's prosperity, a competent government that governed with the best interest of its people in mind would have been working for the past half century to try and convince the United States to lift those sanctions. You would think that being less than 500 miles off the coast of Florida that Cuba would want to have strong relations with the USA rather than Russia over 6,000 miles away. The Soviet Union fell in 1991. It should have been clear since then which horse Cuba should be betting on. Cuba has had 33 years to figure out that their revolution was dead. Their lack of success warming up relations with the USA and their failure to do so is on them.