3 ms·

'Europe has a problem with integration that has its roots in the ethnic character of its states...' In the UK we have large numbers of both Pakistani and India

by dazc 2y ago

'Europe has a problem with integration that has its roots in the ethnic character of its states...' In the UK we have large numbers of both Pakistani and Indian immigrants. One group has integrated mostly successfully in all walks of life and the other one has not. Hard to argue that this has not been a consequence of choice although plenty of experts, who have never lived with 100 miles of these communities, tell us otherwise.

alephnerd 2y ago
The Pakistani (most Pahari/Mirpuri) community was segregated in de facto ghettos and were brought to work unskilled manual labor jobs in a couple industrial estates in the 50s-70s. When the UK began deindustrializing, they were extremely hard hit because the factories shut down. Poverty and Northern England racism (BNP was normalized and doing hate crimes well into the early 2000s, schools were shite with grammar schools closing, etc) kept Mirpuris stuck in the ghetto. And trust me - a Brown guy - when I say that tbe UK is miles more racist and passive aggressive to Desis compared to the US or Canada. Why integrate in a country that keeps being passive aggressive and using your community as a scapegoat. This is why my parents moved to North America instead of Europe in the 1990s - heck my dad had an offer to work for ARM plc in Cambridge back then around the initial IPO. None of the doors I was able to open here in the US would have been opened if I were in the UK or Germany. I'll get amazing schacenfreude when Labour finishes signing the FTA with India in a couple months and Rolls Royce and Dyson begin slowly moving operations.
- dazc 2y ago
  None of the doors I was able to open here in the US would have been opened if I were in the UK or Germany... The UK recently had a Prime Minister of Indian descent, that he was able to breakthrough the glass ceiling of racism is quite remarkable given he subsequently was unable to demonstrate a talent for anything.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > The UK recently had a Prime Minister of Indian descent And the US had an African American President yet police brutality incidents still occur. And that Prime Minister has anyhow left the UK and returned to California (a couple blocks from the Santa Monica Pier). Some GSB alums are setting up a VC Fund for that PM post-Downing Street as we speak. Hell, his business career only started AFTER he immigrated to the US and then returned to the UK to work at TCM. > he was able to breakthrough the glass ceiling P Money is the ultimate equalizer in a country as status obsessed as the UK. Sunak attended an independent school which his parents were able to afford being specialists. Grammar Schools were shut down in the 80s-90s and comprehensives continue to underperform independent schools in placing students in Russell Group programs. If you're parents were working class, you statistically will remain working class. Intergenerational Social Mobility remains lows in the UK [0][1][2][3], and add to that economic depression in the North+Midlands and the very real othering that happens in the UK and that has caused the Mirpuri community to remain economically deprived. -------- In the US I never get asked where I'm from, or told that "my English is excellent", or after a couple pints with coworkers get told "you're one of the good ones". Yet I've faced this kinda BS ALL THE TIME whenever I'm in the UK for work. It's worse on the mainland. Fundamentally, in the US I am not treated as a token nor do I face microagressions. In the UK or Mainland Europe I have to deal with both. [0] - https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/from-briefings-07-april-2022.html https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/from-briefin... [1] - https://ifs.org.uk/news/social-mobility-continues-fall-and-moving-harder-if-you-grow-north-or-midlands https://ifs.org.uk/news/social-mobility-continues-fall-and-m... [2] - https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-sector/our-insights/fixing-the-ladder-how-uk-businesses-benefit-from-better-social-mobility https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-sector/our-insigh... [3] - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-4446.13095 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-4446.1...

by dazc 2y ago

alephnerd 2y ago

The Pakistani (most Pahari/Mirpuri) community was segregated in de facto ghettos and were brought to work unskilled manual labor jobs in a couple industrial estates in the 50s-70s. When the UK began deindustrializing, they were extremely hard hit because the factories shut down. Poverty and Northern England racism (BNP was normalized and doing hate crimes well into the early 2000s, schools were shite with grammar schools closing, etc) kept Mirpuris stuck in the ghetto. And trust me - a Brown guy - when I say that tbe UK is miles more racist and passive aggressive to Desis compared to the US or Canada. Why integrate in a country that keeps being passive aggressive and using your community as a scapegoat. This is why my parents moved to North America instead of Europe in the 1990s - heck my dad had an offer to work for ARM plc in Cambridge back then around the initial IPO. None of the doors I was able to open here in the US would have been opened if I were in the UK or Germany. I'll get amazing schacenfreude when Labour finishes signing the FTA with India in a couple months and Rolls Royce and Dyson begin slowly moving operations.

dazc 2y ago
None of the doors I was able to open here in the US would have been opened if I were in the UK or Germany... The UK recently had a Prime Minister of Indian descent, that he was able to breakthrough the glass ceiling of racism is quite remarkable given he subsequently was unable to demonstrate a talent for anything.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > The UK recently had a Prime Minister of Indian descent And the US had an African American President yet police brutality incidents still occur. And that Prime Minister has anyhow left the UK and returned to California (a couple blocks from the Santa Monica Pier). Some GSB alums are setting up a VC Fund for that PM post-Downing Street as we speak. Hell, his business career only started AFTER he immigrated to the US and then returned to the UK to work at TCM. > he was able to breakthrough the glass ceiling P Money is the ultimate equalizer in a country as status obsessed as the UK. Sunak attended an independent school which his parents were able to afford being specialists. Grammar Schools were shut down in the 80s-90s and comprehensives continue to underperform independent schools in placing students in Russell Group programs. If you're parents were working class, you statistically will remain working class. Intergenerational Social Mobility remains lows in the UK [0][1][2][3], and add to that economic depression in the North+Midlands and the very real othering that happens in the UK and that has caused the Mirpuri community to remain economically deprived. -------- In the US I never get asked where I'm from, or told that "my English is excellent", or after a couple pints with coworkers get told "you're one of the good ones". Yet I've faced this kinda BS ALL THE TIME whenever I'm in the UK for work. It's worse on the mainland. Fundamentally, in the US I am not treated as a token nor do I face microagressions. In the UK or Mainland Europe I have to deal with both. [0] - https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/from-briefings-07-april-2022.html https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/from-briefin... [1] - https://ifs.org.uk/news/social-mobility-continues-fall-and-moving-harder-if-you-grow-north-or-midlands https://ifs.org.uk/news/social-mobility-continues-fall-and-m... [2] - https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-sector/our-insights/fixing-the-ladder-how-uk-businesses-benefit-from-better-social-mobility https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-sector/our-insigh... [3] - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-4446.13095 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-4446.1...