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Even relatively harmless things like haram vs non-haram meats can cause a huge struggle, yet alone other more nuanced, complex cultural issues. Also should we

Even relatively harmless things like haram vs non-haram meats can cause a huge struggle, yet alone other more nuanced, complex cultural issues. Also should we really be accepting of cultures that openly and unashamedly want to harm marginalized groups such as anyone who identifies as LGBT? Getting some new recipes or whatever (as it appears that's the direction you're thinking of) is one thing, having people decapitating school teachers [1] because of a drawing (which itself was based on a lie) is a whole different thing which nobody sane should be in support of in literally any context, ever. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67664805 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67664805 What benefits do you see from importing and allowing this kind of barbarism into society?

ESTheComposer 2y ago
The real question is why you're equating 6 teens to 23% of the world (1.8 billion people)
- sensanaty 2y ago
  Nowhere did I do that. Also, it wasn't solely the 6 teens, it was also their parents and their communities at large outraged about what the teacher did and wanting his head on a spike (show a drawing of Muhammad). Not to forget the spark of the outrage, the girl who was skipping class and lied about what the teacher did, which instigated it all. There was also that small Charlie Hebdo thing, and the Quran burning in Sweden, and countless other similar events over the years in Europe alone. I was born and grew up in Indonesia, and the crap that was happening in Aceh, one of the only islands in Indonesia that practices Sharia law whereas the rest of the country is more secular, churns the stomach. I have no problems with Islam for the most part, but proponents of Sharia law are truly sociopathic monsters that have no place in the 21st century.
  - ESTheComposer 2y ago
    [dead]
thephyber 2y ago
> What benefits do you see from importing and allowing this kind of barbarism into society? Freedom of choice. Is that insane? Those of us who have different opinions than you probably got there because we right-size the risk of the threat you appear to hold so high. Do you believe you are presenting an honest appraisal of both the upside risk and downside risk of immigration?
- sensanaty 2y ago
  Freedom of choice? You realize we're talking about a man who got beheaded because of showing drawings of Muhammad to his students, right? (Ignoring the fact that the instigator of the whole event lied about what he actually did) Do I not have the freedom of choice of not wanting people who will murder over something like that in the same country as myself? > Do you believe you are presenting an honest appraisal of both the upside risk and downside risk of immigration? I never said I'm anti-immigration. I'm an immigrant mysely, soon to be a naturalized citizen of my host country after years of hard work at embracing its culture and traditions as much as I can. I am, however, anti-immigration if the kind of people we're talking about are the types of people that go around beheading people, regardless of their reasoning.
  - thephyber 2y ago
    I’m talking about immigration as a haystack, but you seem to think that we can know in advance who the needles are. Are you under the impression that we can tell barbarians apart from other immigrants and that we still let them in the country? It sounds like you are listening to propaganda media and have no idea what is actually happening with immigration dynamics right now. The barbarians are all religious. The only way to reduce the chance of terrorism to near zero is to either stop all immigration or to stop immigration of religious people. We don’t, because this country was founded by religious zealots and because we value freedom.
keerthiko 2y ago
this is the most holier-than-thou (literally and figuratively) broad strokes opinion phrased as if it's a nuanced opinion about cultures. i think it's self-evident from history and society that "importing" "barbarism" into "society"* is how we even started doing things like not unashamedly harming marginalized groups in the West. if i'm not mistaken most christian sects, whether in europe or america have had various levels of being okay with ostracizing and harming queer and trans people until very recent times. your comment smacks incredibly of thinking only western white civilizations are capable of overcoming "barbarism" and evolving into a more just society for people over time, especially using the common scapegoat of other cultures taking longer to catch up on LGBT rights. fascinating that other people's systems of being is "barbarism" and yours is "society". and thus, it's reasonable that most of the world thinks american society was barbaric with their deep rooted slavery and racism, and european society barbaric with their violent colonial extractionism defining much of their past and present.
- sensanaty 2y ago
  > your comment smacks incredibly of thinking only western white civilizations are capable of overcoming "barbarism" and evolving into a more just society for people over time... I'm neither a Westerner, nor am I (entirely) White (1/2 Serbian, if you count it as white (you'd be surprised), 1/2 Indonesian). I also grew up in and lived in Indonesia the majority of my life. Nowhere did I state that only Western societies are the good ones, either, I tend to believe that Taoist and Buddhist countries have a better track record both in the modern day and in the past for the most part. I'd appreciate if you didn't build a strawman of me, because I'm probably not the person you're imagining in your head. It's shocking, but people outside the west can also believe the west is doing things right and would like them to continue doing so, often because of the cultures they've observed back home. No, what I consider barbarism is a system of being in which it's okay to commit a brutal beheading because the victim dared to show some drawings of a guy you call a Prophet. Or the one that throws people they don't like off of buildings. Or the one that buries people in the ground and chucks rocks at their heads until they die. Or preventing little girls from attending primary and high schools. How many beheadings of innocent people exercising their freedoms provided by the nation they were born in are we okay with until we finally admit, maybe we shouldn't be letting them play in our nice garden if they're just going to kick the flowers and rip out the roots? I grew up in Indonesia, and the entire reason I'm in the West is because of these types of people who'd do such heinous things. And guess what? The Europeans welcomed me with wide open arms, whereas many of my own countrymen would have me grievously harmed due to not being a follower of their hideous beliefs.

ESTheComposer 2y ago

The real question is why you're equating 6 teens to 23% of the world (1.8 billion people)

sensanaty 2y ago
Nowhere did I do that. Also, it wasn't solely the 6 teens, it was also their parents and their communities at large outraged about what the teacher did and wanting his head on a spike (show a drawing of Muhammad). Not to forget the spark of the outrage, the girl who was skipping class and lied about what the teacher did, which instigated it all. There was also that small Charlie Hebdo thing, and the Quran burning in Sweden, and countless other similar events over the years in Europe alone. I was born and grew up in Indonesia, and the crap that was happening in Aceh, one of the only islands in Indonesia that practices Sharia law whereas the rest of the country is more secular, churns the stomach. I have no problems with Islam for the most part, but proponents of Sharia law are truly sociopathic monsters that have no place in the 21st century.
- ESTheComposer 2y ago
  [dead]

thephyber 2y ago

> What benefits do you see from importing and allowing this kind of barbarism into society? Freedom of choice. Is that insane? Those of us who have different opinions than you probably got there because we right-size the risk of the threat you appear to hold so high. Do you believe you are presenting an honest appraisal of both the upside risk and downside risk of immigration?

sensanaty 2y ago
Freedom of choice? You realize we're talking about a man who got beheaded because of showing drawings of Muhammad to his students, right? (Ignoring the fact that the instigator of the whole event lied about what he actually did) Do I not have the freedom of choice of not wanting people who will murder over something like that in the same country as myself? > Do you believe you are presenting an honest appraisal of both the upside risk and downside risk of immigration? I never said I'm anti-immigration. I'm an immigrant mysely, soon to be a naturalized citizen of my host country after years of hard work at embracing its culture and traditions as much as I can. I am, however, anti-immigration if the kind of people we're talking about are the types of people that go around beheading people, regardless of their reasoning.
- thephyber 2y ago
  I’m talking about immigration as a haystack, but you seem to think that we can know in advance who the needles are. Are you under the impression that we can tell barbarians apart from other immigrants and that we still let them in the country? It sounds like you are listening to propaganda media and have no idea what is actually happening with immigration dynamics right now. The barbarians are all religious. The only way to reduce the chance of terrorism to near zero is to either stop all immigration or to stop immigration of religious people. We don’t, because this country was founded by religious zealots and because we value freedom.

keerthiko 2y ago

this is the most holier-than-thou (literally and figuratively) broad strokes opinion phrased as if it's a nuanced opinion about cultures. i think it's self-evident from history and society that "importing" "barbarism" into "society"* is how we even started doing things like not unashamedly harming marginalized groups in the West. if i'm not mistaken most christian sects, whether in europe or america have had various levels of being okay with ostracizing and harming queer and trans people until very recent times. your comment smacks incredibly of thinking only western white civilizations are capable of overcoming "barbarism" and evolving into a more just society for people over time, especially using the common scapegoat of other cultures taking longer to catch up on LGBT rights. fascinating that other people's systems of being is "barbarism" and yours is "society". and thus, it's reasonable that most of the world thinks american society was barbaric with their deep rooted slavery and racism, and european society barbaric with their violent colonial extractionism defining much of their past and present.

sensanaty 2y ago
> your comment smacks incredibly of thinking only western white civilizations are capable of overcoming "barbarism" and evolving into a more just society for people over time... I'm neither a Westerner, nor am I (entirely) White (1/2 Serbian, if you count it as white (you'd be surprised), 1/2 Indonesian). I also grew up in and lived in Indonesia the majority of my life. Nowhere did I state that only Western societies are the good ones, either, I tend to believe that Taoist and Buddhist countries have a better track record both in the modern day and in the past for the most part. I'd appreciate if you didn't build a strawman of me, because I'm probably not the person you're imagining in your head. It's shocking, but people outside the west can also believe the west is doing things right and would like them to continue doing so, often because of the cultures they've observed back home. No, what I consider barbarism is a system of being in which it's okay to commit a brutal beheading because the victim dared to show some drawings of a guy you call a Prophet. Or the one that throws people they don't like off of buildings. Or the one that buries people in the ground and chucks rocks at their heads until they die. Or preventing little girls from attending primary and high schools. How many beheadings of innocent people exercising their freedoms provided by the nation they were born in are we okay with until we finally admit, maybe we shouldn't be letting them play in our nice garden if they're just going to kick the flowers and rip out the roots? I grew up in Indonesia, and the entire reason I'm in the West is because of these types of people who'd do such heinous things. And guess what? The Europeans welcomed me with wide open arms, whereas many of my own countrymen would have me grievously harmed due to not being a follower of their hideous beliefs.