4 ms·

I don’t know man. This idea of certain cultures being so distant that they cannot be integrated with others sounds a bit alien to me. If anything, we (all the d

by dakiol 2y ago

I don’t know man. This idea of certain cultures being so distant that they cannot be integrated with others sounds a bit alien to me. If anything, we (all the different cultures in this planet) are the result of a vast amount of mixing over the centuries. We probably don’t notice it anymore (proof that the mix has worked wonders) and we think we all are so good because “our” culture, “our” values. I mean, if something so profound such as religion was literally imported to America, anything is possible. Sometimes I wish we were invaded by aliens 100% different from us in every aspect, so that we realised once and for all that we all humans just are and feel the same.

wrycoder 2y ago
The problem occurs when the newcomers adopt a haughty, colonialist attitude and yet have little to offer to their hosts.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Presumably they contribute to the hosts bottom line by satisfying labor demand and generating new tax revenue.
ryan93 2y ago
[flagged]
sensanaty 2y ago
Even relatively harmless things like haram vs non-haram meats can cause a huge struggle, yet alone other more nuanced, complex cultural issues. Also should we really be accepting of cultures that openly and unashamedly want to harm marginalized groups such as anyone who identifies as LGBT? Getting some new recipes or whatever (as it appears that's the direction you're thinking of) is one thing, having people decapitating school teachers [1] because of a drawing (which itself was based on a lie) is a whole different thing which nobody sane should be in support of in literally any context, ever. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67664805 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67664805 What benefits do you see from importing and allowing this kind of barbarism into society?
- ESTheComposer 2y ago
  The real question is why you're equating 6 teens to 23% of the world (1.8 billion people)
  - sensanaty 2y ago
    Nowhere did I do that. Also, it wasn't solely the 6 teens, it was also their parents and their communities at large outraged about what the teacher did and wanting his head on a spike (show a drawing of Muhammad). Not to forget the spark of the outrage, the girl who was skipping class and lied about what the teacher did, which instigated it all. There was also that small Charlie Hebdo thing, and the Quran burning in Sweden, and countless other similar events over the years in Europe alone. I was born and grew up in Indonesia, and the crap that was happening in Aceh, one of the only islands in Indonesia that practices Sharia law whereas the rest of the country is more secular, churns the stomach. I have no problems with Islam for the most part, but proponents of Sharia law are truly sociopathic monsters that have no place in the 21st century.
    - ESTheComposer 2y ago
      [dead]
- thephyber 2y ago
  > What benefits do you see from importing and allowing this kind of barbarism into society? Freedom of choice. Is that insane? Those of us who have different opinions than you probably got there because we right-size the risk of the threat you appear to hold so high. Do you believe you are presenting an honest appraisal of both the upside risk and downside risk of immigration?
  - sensanaty 2y ago
    Freedom of choice? You realize we're talking about a man who got beheaded because of showing drawings of Muhammad to his students, right? (Ignoring the fact that the instigator of the whole event lied about what he actually did) Do I not have the freedom of choice of not wanting people who will murder over something like that in the same country as myself? > Do you believe you are presenting an honest appraisal of both the upside risk and downside risk of immigration? I never said I'm anti-immigration. I'm an immigrant mysely, soon to be a naturalized citizen of my host country after years of hard work at embracing its culture and traditions as much as I can. I am, however, anti-immigration if the kind of people we're talking about are the types of people that go around beheading people, regardless of their reasoning.
RamblingCTO 2y ago
I've seen this a bit throughout the discussion so let's make it explicit: how on earth would someone socialized in a world where women are second tier, murders in the name of protecting the family honor, sidelining official judiciary systems, putting religion over the state, rape, sexual assault and on an on integrate well with a country that has totally different values (i.e. is a child of enlightenment)? How does that work? We see again and again, that it does not work. We (=Germany) have plenty of statistics to offer. Why some countries (muslim countries btw) have a way higher part of that and others don't. How is the culture of Talibans compatible with western morale? How? It's just not. We aren't all the same, that's just ignoring the truth of how the world works and is plenty naive. That doesn't mean that these people are lesser beings, but that the gap between "them" and "us" (which is a culture thing btw, not a gene thing) is bigger. And that also means that it's not equidistant throughout. We're not all socialized equally. Example source: https://www.nzz.ch/der-andere-blick/kriminalstatistik-2023-deutschland-importiert-kriminalitaet-im-grossen-stil-ld.1825431 https://www.nzz.ch/der-andere-blick/kriminalstatistik-2023-d... 40% of suspects don't have a German passport while the base group is 15% relative to the whole country. Opinons like yours prevent successful immigration discussions because you have the wrong foundation. That prevents us from having a) a proper integration discussion b) solving current issues and c) creating a working immigration system.

by dakiol 2y ago

wrycoder 2y ago

The problem occurs when the newcomers adopt a haughty, colonialist attitude and yet have little to offer to their hosts.

kjkjadksj 2y ago
Presumably they contribute to the hosts bottom line by satisfying labor demand and generating new tax revenue.

ryan93 2y ago

[flagged]

sensanaty 2y ago

Even relatively harmless things like haram vs non-haram meats can cause a huge struggle, yet alone other more nuanced, complex cultural issues. Also should we really be accepting of cultures that openly and unashamedly want to harm marginalized groups such as anyone who identifies as LGBT? Getting some new recipes or whatever (as it appears that's the direction you're thinking of) is one thing, having people decapitating school teachers [1] because of a drawing (which itself was based on a lie) is a whole different thing which nobody sane should be in support of in literally any context, ever. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67664805 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67664805 What benefits do you see from importing and allowing this kind of barbarism into society?

ESTheComposer 2y ago
The real question is why you're equating 6 teens to 23% of the world (1.8 billion people)
- sensanaty 2y ago
  Nowhere did I do that. Also, it wasn't solely the 6 teens, it was also their parents and their communities at large outraged about what the teacher did and wanting his head on a spike (show a drawing of Muhammad). Not to forget the spark of the outrage, the girl who was skipping class and lied about what the teacher did, which instigated it all. There was also that small Charlie Hebdo thing, and the Quran burning in Sweden, and countless other similar events over the years in Europe alone. I was born and grew up in Indonesia, and the crap that was happening in Aceh, one of the only islands in Indonesia that practices Sharia law whereas the rest of the country is more secular, churns the stomach. I have no problems with Islam for the most part, but proponents of Sharia law are truly sociopathic monsters that have no place in the 21st century.
  - ESTheComposer 2y ago
    [dead]
thephyber 2y ago
> What benefits do you see from importing and allowing this kind of barbarism into society? Freedom of choice. Is that insane? Those of us who have different opinions than you probably got there because we right-size the risk of the threat you appear to hold so high. Do you believe you are presenting an honest appraisal of both the upside risk and downside risk of immigration?
- sensanaty 2y ago
  Freedom of choice? You realize we're talking about a man who got beheaded because of showing drawings of Muhammad to his students, right? (Ignoring the fact that the instigator of the whole event lied about what he actually did) Do I not have the freedom of choice of not wanting people who will murder over something like that in the same country as myself? > Do you believe you are presenting an honest appraisal of both the upside risk and downside risk of immigration? I never said I'm anti-immigration. I'm an immigrant mysely, soon to be a naturalized citizen of my host country after years of hard work at embracing its culture and traditions as much as I can. I am, however, anti-immigration if the kind of people we're talking about are the types of people that go around beheading people, regardless of their reasoning.

RamblingCTO 2y ago

I've seen this a bit throughout the discussion so let's make it explicit: how on earth would someone socialized in a world where women are second tier, murders in the name of protecting the family honor, sidelining official judiciary systems, putting religion over the state, rape, sexual assault and on an on integrate well with a country that has totally different values (i.e. is a child of enlightenment)? How does that work? We see again and again, that it does not work. We (=Germany) have plenty of statistics to offer. Why some countries (muslim countries btw) have a way higher part of that and others don't. How is the culture of Talibans compatible with western morale? How? It's just not. We aren't all the same, that's just ignoring the truth of how the world works and is plenty naive. That doesn't mean that these people are lesser beings, but that the gap between "them" and "us" (which is a culture thing btw, not a gene thing) is bigger. And that also means that it's not equidistant throughout. We're not all socialized equally. Example source: https://www.nzz.ch/der-andere-blick/kriminalstatistik-2023-deutschland-importiert-kriminalitaet-im-grossen-stil-ld.1825431 https://www.nzz.ch/der-andere-blick/kriminalstatistik-2023-d... 40% of suspects don't have a German passport while the base group is 15% relative to the whole country. Opinons like yours prevent successful immigration discussions because you have the wrong foundation. That prevents us from having a) a proper integration discussion b) solving current issues and c) creating a working immigration system.