4 ms·

What is and isn't legal immigration is always a moving target. A majority of US history included open borders where it was legal for anyone to get off a boat, p

What is and isn't legal immigration is always a moving target. A majority of US history included open borders where it was legal for anyone to get off a boat, provide some basic info, and go on to try and make their way here. The idea of closed borders, immigration caps, etc is relatively modern and driven more by the fact that social entitlement programs cost money than a fear of dangerous people coming here.

mensetmanusman 2y ago
Modern civilization has entitlements, if we get rid of entitlements, sure we can have open borders. We just can’t do both or the system collapses.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Agreed. That's where the question is really interesting, and important, though. If we can only have one or the other, and if a majority of Americans view our southern border as an untenable situation, can we maintain our entitlement programs? Entitlement programs only work if we can secure our borders. If we can't secure our borders it seems to be clear that we can't have the entitlement programs.
- AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
  Why are some societies worse off than others, to the point where someone would need to move countries take their entitlements? Might it have something to do with what the entitled countries did to the ones that are worse off?
  - tonynator 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
      I see what you did there. But no, most studies seem to indicate intelligence is correlated with lower authoritarianism. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289624000254 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...
      - tonynator 2y ago
        [flagged]
        AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
        Now I'm just curious, how the fuck does race determine IQ? That sounds like some nazi shit...
        tonynator 2y ago
        Yes it does, that means "sounds correct." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption... Black kids adopted by well-off White families remain lower IQ than White kids adopted by well-off White families. In a world that actually gave a shit about the truth this wouldn't be news to you
        _heimdall 2y ago
        Your example would actually prove the negative here. Adopting a black kid into the white family did not change the kid's race. Adoption only changes the kid's environment. How do you read that as an indicator that race was the differentiator? Do you mean only race of the immediate family in the household, not race of the person taking the test? That seems like a stretch to say it's race based at that point, and also a pretty useless data point unless your recommendation is to somehow leverage that by adopting more kids into white families because your belief is that will make them score higher on an IQ test and that a higher IQ score is a meaningful enough metric to propose such a big intervention.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      I'd be very cautious reading anything into IQ results with no other context. An IQ test result is only a good metric of how a person compares to the rest of the population with regards to the specific types of questions and modalities in the IQ test. An IQ result alone is pretty meaningless, especially if you haven't done te research to validate that the IQ test is a high quality predictor of twhstever you are using it as an analog for. If you have reproducable research showing a link between the IQ test design and authoritarianism I'd be very interested to see it. I've never seen such a study, at least a study done with any scientific rigor.
      - rpmisms 2y ago
        IQ is good as an indicator, not a predictor. You can make assumptions that will likely be true on the basis of IQ, but there's very little that you can say for an absolute fact on that basis.
        _heimdall 2y ago
        I think we're saying the same thing here. I'd argue IQ is correlated with the some outcome, but that it causal of few or none. Is that roughly what you're getting at too? When IQ is indicative but not predictive, I just don't see much use there. If I can't predict future behavior, success, or some other metric then I'm not sure why I'd zero in in IQ specifically. I have also found past experience to be indicitive but not predictive, and I don't need to trust a standardized testing method to review experience.
        rpmisms 2y ago
        I will agree based on anecdata alone. I have a high IQ, but have achieved much less than you might predict based on that IQ alone--primarily out of lack of desire. Even though on paper I may be high-potential, in real life I'd prefer to be normal, and for every one of me that exists, there's a 100 IQ person who has the drive and willpower to achieve things that would be considered atypical. Both of us are exceptions, but we both still exist.
    - anthk 2y ago
      Say that to the Pol Pot Vietnamese. Or the Maoist in China. Or the Francoist in Spain.
  - creato 2y ago
    Even if we accept this point as fact, which I think is maybe, partially true in some cases, it’s such a ridiculous argument. Do you think the average American is going to think that because their 3-10x generation ancestors, who might not even have existed in this country, might have been assholes to the 3-10x generation ancestors of these immigrants today, that they are now unable to have an opinion on how their government handles immigration and entitlements?
  - rangestransform 2y ago
    That doesn’t force upon the US any responsibility at all to deal with it
amanaplanacanal 2y ago
The original immigration laws were explicitly racist. They were long before the entitlement programs existed.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I don't know enough about the specific racial factors in our older immigration laws, I'll take your word for it, but there isn't anything linking the two. We could have open borders without entitlement programs or racist immigration laws.
  - tonynator 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      You really put a lot of faith in IQ tests. What is it about IQ scores that makes you think it's worth so much that it should drive government policy and empower the federal government with the authority to do so?
      - tonynator 2y ago
        [flagged]
vitaflo 2y ago
> A majority of US history included open borders where it was legal for anyone to get off a boat, provide some basic info, and go on to try and make their way here. Unless you were coming off a boat from Africa. Lets not forget that slavery defined a large section of American history.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I didn't say that anyone getting off a boat was doing it willingly. There are a ton of problems in US history related to slavery, not least of which how our founding fathers handled slavery while attempted to build a nation based on freedom and individual rights. That's separate from the core topic here though. The slave trade and all the problems that go along with it do not change the fact that our borders were open for a majority of our history.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

Modern civilization has entitlements, if we get rid of entitlements, sure we can have open borders. We just can’t do both or the system collapses.

_heimdall 2y ago
Agreed. That's where the question is really interesting, and important, though. If we can only have one or the other, and if a majority of Americans view our southern border as an untenable situation, can we maintain our entitlement programs? Entitlement programs only work if we can secure our borders. If we can't secure our borders it seems to be clear that we can't have the entitlement programs.
AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
Why are some societies worse off than others, to the point where someone would need to move countries take their entitlements? Might it have something to do with what the entitled countries did to the ones that are worse off?
- tonynator 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
    I see what you did there. But no, most studies seem to indicate intelligence is correlated with lower authoritarianism. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289624000254 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...
    - tonynator 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
        Now I'm just curious, how the fuck does race determine IQ? That sounds like some nazi shit...
        tonynator 2y ago
        Yes it does, that means "sounds correct." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption... Black kids adopted by well-off White families remain lower IQ than White kids adopted by well-off White families. In a world that actually gave a shit about the truth this wouldn't be news to you
        _heimdall 2y ago
        Your example would actually prove the negative here. Adopting a black kid into the white family did not change the kid's race. Adoption only changes the kid's environment. How do you read that as an indicator that race was the differentiator? Do you mean only race of the immediate family in the household, not race of the person taking the test? That seems like a stretch to say it's race based at that point, and also a pretty useless data point unless your recommendation is to somehow leverage that by adopting more kids into white families because your belief is that will make them score higher on an IQ test and that a higher IQ score is a meaningful enough metric to propose such a big intervention.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I'd be very cautious reading anything into IQ results with no other context. An IQ test result is only a good metric of how a person compares to the rest of the population with regards to the specific types of questions and modalities in the IQ test. An IQ result alone is pretty meaningless, especially if you haven't done te research to validate that the IQ test is a high quality predictor of twhstever you are using it as an analog for. If you have reproducable research showing a link between the IQ test design and authoritarianism I'd be very interested to see it. I've never seen such a study, at least a study done with any scientific rigor.
    - rpmisms 2y ago
      IQ is good as an indicator, not a predictor. You can make assumptions that will likely be true on the basis of IQ, but there's very little that you can say for an absolute fact on that basis.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        I think we're saying the same thing here. I'd argue IQ is correlated with the some outcome, but that it causal of few or none. Is that roughly what you're getting at too? When IQ is indicative but not predictive, I just don't see much use there. If I can't predict future behavior, success, or some other metric then I'm not sure why I'd zero in in IQ specifically. I have also found past experience to be indicitive but not predictive, and I don't need to trust a standardized testing method to review experience.
        rpmisms 2y ago
        I will agree based on anecdata alone. I have a high IQ, but have achieved much less than you might predict based on that IQ alone--primarily out of lack of desire. Even though on paper I may be high-potential, in real life I'd prefer to be normal, and for every one of me that exists, there's a 100 IQ person who has the drive and willpower to achieve things that would be considered atypical. Both of us are exceptions, but we both still exist.
  - anthk 2y ago
    Say that to the Pol Pot Vietnamese. Or the Maoist in China. Or the Francoist in Spain.
- creato 2y ago
  Even if we accept this point as fact, which I think is maybe, partially true in some cases, it’s such a ridiculous argument. Do you think the average American is going to think that because their 3-10x generation ancestors, who might not even have existed in this country, might have been assholes to the 3-10x generation ancestors of these immigrants today, that they are now unable to have an opinion on how their government handles immigration and entitlements?
- rangestransform 2y ago
  That doesn’t force upon the US any responsibility at all to deal with it

amanaplanacanal 2y ago

The original immigration laws were explicitly racist. They were long before the entitlement programs existed.

_heimdall 2y ago
I don't know enough about the specific racial factors in our older immigration laws, I'll take your word for it, but there isn't anything linking the two. We could have open borders without entitlement programs or racist immigration laws.
- tonynator 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    You really put a lot of faith in IQ tests. What is it about IQ scores that makes you think it's worth so much that it should drive government policy and empower the federal government with the authority to do so?
    - tonynator 2y ago
      [flagged]

vitaflo 2y ago

> A majority of US history included open borders where it was legal for anyone to get off a boat, provide some basic info, and go on to try and make their way here. Unless you were coming off a boat from Africa. Lets not forget that slavery defined a large section of American history.

_heimdall 2y ago
I didn't say that anyone getting off a boat was doing it willingly. There are a ton of problems in US history related to slavery, not least of which how our founding fathers handled slavery while attempted to build a nation based on freedom and individual rights. That's separate from the core topic here though. The slave trade and all the problems that go along with it do not change the fact that our borders were open for a majority of our history.