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Why would we be opposed to unskilled immigrants? The majority of the people who came here from Europe in the 1700s and 1800s were laborers, factory workers, far

Why would we be opposed to unskilled immigrants? The majority of the people who came here from Europe in the 1700s and 1800s were laborers, factory workers, farmers, and other simple occupations. Why are we pulling up the ladder behind them? Did you want to freeze the US as it was circa 1950? Things change man. The US isn't forever, anymore than Rome was. You gotta stop trying to fight the current and pretending that by preventing "unskilled immigration" you can maintain the US in some hypothetical idealized state completely specific to your imagination.

gottorf 2y ago
> The majority of the people who came here from Europe in the 1700s and 1800s were laborers, factory workers, farmers, and other simple occupations. Why are we pulling up the ladder behind them? The welfare state did not exist in that time, so the cost of absorbing immigration was confined to acculturation. Immigrants had to quickly start generating value or perish. The incentives are radically different now and the marginal cost to society of absorbing each additional immigrant is much higher. US government spending as a percentage of GDP remained low single digits until WW1; it is roughly 35% today. > You gotta stop trying to fight the current You must also remember that the natural state of everything is decay, and the natural state of mankind in particular is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short". The current grinds everything down to sand. It is incumbent upon everyone to fight the current in the way that affords the greatest benefit to society.
- claytongulick 2y ago
  It takes energy to fight entropy. I believe that the entropic state of human civilization is brutal authoritarianism. Fight the current, indeed. It's quite remarkable how effectively the citizens of the United States have managed to do that over the years. To resist the sweet, seductive lies of utopians who seek power. I hope we're able to continue.
  - lifeisstillgood 2y ago
    That’s insightful and terrifying at the same time
- harimau777 2y ago
  What welfare costs are you referring to? Is there actual evidence that immigrants are a drain on the country? The information that I'm seeing suggests that they are a net positive in terms of taxes.
  - murderfs 2y ago
    The response of cities to Texas bussing immigrants to them is pretty stark evidence: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/20/us/abbott-texas-migrant-buses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/20/us/abbott-texas-migrant-b... If they were a net gain, cities presumably wouldn't be playing hot potato with migrants by paying for one way bus tickets to "not here".
    - oooyay 2y ago
      I lived in Texas for most of my life. Immigrants quite literally fueled the economy of Texas. Most homes in North Texas shift and require foundation leveling or repair every 8-10 years; estimates for this kind of work range from cheap to very expensive and it's done the same way. The difference is immigrants doing the work vs not. There's a certain amount of migratory ag that is supported by immigrants. Harbors are full of immigrant businesses and services being provided. The massive expansion in housing has mostly been facilitated by an immigrant labor force. I lived under George W Bush, Rick Perry, and Greg Abbott as governors. I can tell you what distinguishes Greg Abbott from the rest of them is that Greg Abbott is an absolute piece of shit. I say that with zero embellishing. When I came home from the military there was this conspiracy theory called Jade Helm rocking Texas that a scheduled military training exercise in Texas was actually an exercise in taking peoples guns. Greg Abbott knew about and authorized the exercise, but stoked fears anyway: https://www.texastribune.org/2018/05/03/hysteria-over-jade-helm-exercise-texas-was-fueled-russians-former-cia-/ https://www.texastribune.org/2018/05/03/hysteria-over-jade-h... Since then Greg has also employed barbed wire in the Rio Grand so that people crossing would get stuck in it and drown: https://www.axios.com/local/san-antonio/2023/07/22/doj-abbott-buoy-lawsuit https://www.axios.com/local/san-antonio/2023/07/22/doj-abbot... Greg quite literally pried the Houston ISD's autonomy from them despite them completing the state mandate and progressing far better than anyone thought they would in the allotted time. Why? So he could institute a voucher system so that kids can go to private, Christian schools with state money: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/03/27/real-story-takeover-houston-public-schools/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/03/27/real-sto... The man is a populist of the worst type. He takes an already bad situation, dumps fuel on it, calls it a solution, and acts none the wiser when things blow up; when they do inevitably blow up, he always has a patsy to blame. This is all to say, before I'd trust the actions of Greg Abbott and shipping people to new towns you should probably ask yourself, "What political game could Greg be playing?" and that will be closer to the truth than any rationalization you can come up with.
- diffxx 2y ago
  Hobbes doesn't get the last word on the natural state of mankind. Thank God.
zozbot234 2y ago
> Did you want to freeze the US as it was circa 1950? That's exactly what we're doing (in Europe and East Asia even more so than the U.S.) by opposing skilled migration. Increasing legal skilled migration is much more critical, though other concerns such as asylum rights for those fleeing from an oppressive government or a war-ravaged country also matter quite a bit.
cm2187 2y ago
That was when those countries were going through their industrial revolution. Those same countries are now desindustrialising.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  There’s still work these people are finding in the US. Ever been to socal? Go to an el salvador neighborhood, one of the most recent immigrant communities. Absolutely buzzing with people going to their various jobs. Are they stamping out Fords? No. Pouring cement and hanging drywall maybe, or cooking on the line. There’s still plenty of work for people who can offer their time and their two hands over a credentialed resume in the US.

gottorf 2y ago

> The majority of the people who came here from Europe in the 1700s and 1800s were laborers, factory workers, farmers, and other simple occupations. Why are we pulling up the ladder behind them? The welfare state did not exist in that time, so the cost of absorbing immigration was confined to acculturation. Immigrants had to quickly start generating value or perish. The incentives are radically different now and the marginal cost to society of absorbing each additional immigrant is much higher. US government spending as a percentage of GDP remained low single digits until WW1; it is roughly 35% today. > You gotta stop trying to fight the current You must also remember that the natural state of everything is decay, and the natural state of mankind in particular is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short". The current grinds everything down to sand. It is incumbent upon everyone to fight the current in the way that affords the greatest benefit to society.

claytongulick 2y ago
It takes energy to fight entropy. I believe that the entropic state of human civilization is brutal authoritarianism. Fight the current, indeed. It's quite remarkable how effectively the citizens of the United States have managed to do that over the years. To resist the sweet, seductive lies of utopians who seek power. I hope we're able to continue.
- lifeisstillgood 2y ago
  That’s insightful and terrifying at the same time
harimau777 2y ago
What welfare costs are you referring to? Is there actual evidence that immigrants are a drain on the country? The information that I'm seeing suggests that they are a net positive in terms of taxes.
- murderfs 2y ago
  The response of cities to Texas bussing immigrants to them is pretty stark evidence: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/20/us/abbott-texas-migrant-buses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/20/us/abbott-texas-migrant-b... If they were a net gain, cities presumably wouldn't be playing hot potato with migrants by paying for one way bus tickets to "not here".
  - oooyay 2y ago
    I lived in Texas for most of my life. Immigrants quite literally fueled the economy of Texas. Most homes in North Texas shift and require foundation leveling or repair every 8-10 years; estimates for this kind of work range from cheap to very expensive and it's done the same way. The difference is immigrants doing the work vs not. There's a certain amount of migratory ag that is supported by immigrants. Harbors are full of immigrant businesses and services being provided. The massive expansion in housing has mostly been facilitated by an immigrant labor force. I lived under George W Bush, Rick Perry, and Greg Abbott as governors. I can tell you what distinguishes Greg Abbott from the rest of them is that Greg Abbott is an absolute piece of shit. I say that with zero embellishing. When I came home from the military there was this conspiracy theory called Jade Helm rocking Texas that a scheduled military training exercise in Texas was actually an exercise in taking peoples guns. Greg Abbott knew about and authorized the exercise, but stoked fears anyway: https://www.texastribune.org/2018/05/03/hysteria-over-jade-helm-exercise-texas-was-fueled-russians-former-cia-/ https://www.texastribune.org/2018/05/03/hysteria-over-jade-h... Since then Greg has also employed barbed wire in the Rio Grand so that people crossing would get stuck in it and drown: https://www.axios.com/local/san-antonio/2023/07/22/doj-abbott-buoy-lawsuit https://www.axios.com/local/san-antonio/2023/07/22/doj-abbot... Greg quite literally pried the Houston ISD's autonomy from them despite them completing the state mandate and progressing far better than anyone thought they would in the allotted time. Why? So he could institute a voucher system so that kids can go to private, Christian schools with state money: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/03/27/real-story-takeover-houston-public-schools/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/03/27/real-sto... The man is a populist of the worst type. He takes an already bad situation, dumps fuel on it, calls it a solution, and acts none the wiser when things blow up; when they do inevitably blow up, he always has a patsy to blame. This is all to say, before I'd trust the actions of Greg Abbott and shipping people to new towns you should probably ask yourself, "What political game could Greg be playing?" and that will be closer to the truth than any rationalization you can come up with.
diffxx 2y ago
Hobbes doesn't get the last word on the natural state of mankind. Thank God.

zozbot234 2y ago

> Did you want to freeze the US as it was circa 1950? That's exactly what we're doing (in Europe and East Asia even more so than the U.S.) by opposing skilled migration. Increasing legal skilled migration is much more critical, though other concerns such as asylum rights for those fleeing from an oppressive government or a war-ravaged country also matter quite a bit.

cm2187 2y ago

That was when those countries were going through their industrial revolution. Those same countries are now desindustrialising.

kjkjadksj 2y ago
There’s still work these people are finding in the US. Ever been to socal? Go to an el salvador neighborhood, one of the most recent immigrant communities. Absolutely buzzing with people going to their various jobs. Are they stamping out Fords? No. Pouring cement and hanging drywall maybe, or cooking on the line. There’s still plenty of work for people who can offer their time and their two hands over a credentialed resume in the US.