5 ms·

I will never understand this take. Go look at a map of states implementing/banning ranked-choice voting[1], now go look at a map of states political affiliation

I will never understand this take. Go look at a map of states implementing/banning ranked-choice voting[1], now go look at a map of states political affiliation[2]. Every state that bans RCV is Republican; every time it's passed it was done so by Democrats or a direct vote. If you want any chance at all of breaking the two party system, it's clear you must vote for Democrats. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_... 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_U.S._states https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_...

lolinder 2y ago
You're correct on the banning front, but Alaska is one of only three states that use RCV in any state-wide elections and Utah is one of only four states that offer it state-wide as an offical option for local elections. The blue-coded states use it in some local jurisdictions but don't encode it at all at the state level. There's definitely a Democratic slant to the 7 states that have some sort of statewide policy approving RCV's use. But then again, Utah has more municipalities listed on that article as actually using it at the local level than all 5 Democratic states (Colorado, New Mexico, Virginia, Maine, Hawaii) combined. In other words, the issue isn't as cut-and-dry in your sources as you make it sound.
- theossuary 2y ago
  Alaska only has it because of a ballot measure[1], so I don't consider Alaska a win for Republicans. It looks as though Republicans are also trying to end the trial of RCV early in Utah[2]. So, of your examples of Republican states with RCV, it either happened in spite of them, or they're actively trying to get rid of it. Add in examples like Maine where the Republican loser tries to sue, claiming RCV is unconstitutional because it didn't work in his favor[3]; you start to see a pattern of Republicans resisting RCV, and Democrats championing alternative voting styles that don't force a two party system. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Alaska_Measure_2 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Alaska_Measure_2 2: https://www.standard.net/news/government/2024/feb/15/utah-lawmakers-may-end-ranked-choice-voting-pilot-program-early/ https://www.standard.net/news/government/2024/feb/15/utah-la... 3: https://bangordailynews.com/2018/11/15/news/judge-denies-poliquins-request-to-stop-ranked-choice-count-as-decision-nears/ https://bangordailynews.com/2018/11/15/news/judge-denies-pol...
  - lolinder 2y ago
    You can't count Utah out until they actually do something to walk it back, representatives just talking about doing something is usually them just posturing for their base. And if we're excluding ballot measures then you also have to drop Maine [0]. If you drop Maine and Alaska as not representing entrenched party politics then you're left with 4/50 states that implemented a measure allowing RCV at the local (city) level and 1/50 states (Hawaii) that implemented a measure allowing it at the federal level (for special federal elections only). Of the four states that officially allowed RCV at the local level by an act of the legislature, Utah has more municipalities taking advantage of that than the rest of the states combined. I'm not arguing that Republicans are champions of RCV, just that it's pretty obvious that Democrats aren't much better if at all. By your rules, 1/50 states voluntarily allowed RCV for any state or federal election (where party politics usually matter, unlike most local elections), and even that one state's law is only for rare special cases. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Maine_Question_5 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Maine_Ques...
    - theossuary 2y ago
      Except Maine shouldn't be ruled out because its congress passed RCV for presidential races (what I thought the conversation was always about, national level politics) along party lines in 2019[1]. You're also undervaluing that all of the ten states that have preeemptively banned RCV are Republican controlled. Sure there aren't a dozen Democratic states with RCV yet, that should change! We should push for that. But that's a far cry from preemptively banning it; there's no chance for change there. That's my point, yeah Democrats aren't the best, or even great; but at least there's the chance for improvement. Republicans have overwhelmingly banned that chance. 1: https://www.pressherald.com/2019/08/26/maine-senate-passes-ranked-choice-voting-for-march-presidential-primaries/ https://www.pressherald.com/2019/08/26/maine-senate-passes-r...
      - lolinder 2y ago
        > presidential races (what I thought the conversation was always about, national level politics) along party lines in 2019 In primaries, which poses no threat to the party structure if the general election is still first past the post. I'm not at all interested in election systems for primaries when the issue at hand is how many parties can exist. > You're also undervaluing that all of the ten states that have preeemptively banned RCV are Republican controlled I'm ignoring that because I think it's more part of the general Republican hysteria about voting integrity than it is a calculated move by Republican politicians specifically to ban RCV for preserving-the-two-party-system reasons. The question at hand is whether both parties would really rather not see RCV, and I see no evidence that there's going to be any significant movement from the Democrats towards it for general statewide elections any time soon. The Democrats just don't feel the need to make a big deal about it like the Republicans do at the moment.

lolinder 2y ago

You're correct on the banning front, but Alaska is one of only three states that use RCV in any state-wide elections and Utah is one of only four states that offer it state-wide as an offical option for local elections. The blue-coded states use it in some local jurisdictions but don't encode it at all at the state level. There's definitely a Democratic slant to the 7 states that have some sort of statewide policy approving RCV's use. But then again, Utah has more municipalities listed on that article as actually using it at the local level than all 5 Democratic states (Colorado, New Mexico, Virginia, Maine, Hawaii) combined. In other words, the issue isn't as cut-and-dry in your sources as you make it sound.

theossuary 2y ago
Alaska only has it because of a ballot measure[1], so I don't consider Alaska a win for Republicans. It looks as though Republicans are also trying to end the trial of RCV early in Utah[2]. So, of your examples of Republican states with RCV, it either happened in spite of them, or they're actively trying to get rid of it. Add in examples like Maine where the Republican loser tries to sue, claiming RCV is unconstitutional because it didn't work in his favor[3]; you start to see a pattern of Republicans resisting RCV, and Democrats championing alternative voting styles that don't force a two party system. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Alaska_Measure_2 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Alaska_Measure_2 2: https://www.standard.net/news/government/2024/feb/15/utah-lawmakers-may-end-ranked-choice-voting-pilot-program-early/ https://www.standard.net/news/government/2024/feb/15/utah-la... 3: https://bangordailynews.com/2018/11/15/news/judge-denies-poliquins-request-to-stop-ranked-choice-count-as-decision-nears/ https://bangordailynews.com/2018/11/15/news/judge-denies-pol...
- lolinder 2y ago
  You can't count Utah out until they actually do something to walk it back, representatives just talking about doing something is usually them just posturing for their base. And if we're excluding ballot measures then you also have to drop Maine [0]. If you drop Maine and Alaska as not representing entrenched party politics then you're left with 4/50 states that implemented a measure allowing RCV at the local (city) level and 1/50 states (Hawaii) that implemented a measure allowing it at the federal level (for special federal elections only). Of the four states that officially allowed RCV at the local level by an act of the legislature, Utah has more municipalities taking advantage of that than the rest of the states combined. I'm not arguing that Republicans are champions of RCV, just that it's pretty obvious that Democrats aren't much better if at all. By your rules, 1/50 states voluntarily allowed RCV for any state or federal election (where party politics usually matter, unlike most local elections), and even that one state's law is only for rare special cases. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Maine_Question_5 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Maine_Ques...
  - theossuary 2y ago
    Except Maine shouldn't be ruled out because its congress passed RCV for presidential races (what I thought the conversation was always about, national level politics) along party lines in 2019[1]. You're also undervaluing that all of the ten states that have preeemptively banned RCV are Republican controlled. Sure there aren't a dozen Democratic states with RCV yet, that should change! We should push for that. But that's a far cry from preemptively banning it; there's no chance for change there. That's my point, yeah Democrats aren't the best, or even great; but at least there's the chance for improvement. Republicans have overwhelmingly banned that chance. 1: https://www.pressherald.com/2019/08/26/maine-senate-passes-ranked-choice-voting-for-march-presidential-primaries/ https://www.pressherald.com/2019/08/26/maine-senate-passes-r...
    - lolinder 2y ago
      > presidential races (what I thought the conversation was always about, national level politics) along party lines in 2019 In primaries, which poses no threat to the party structure if the general election is still first past the post. I'm not at all interested in election systems for primaries when the issue at hand is how many parties can exist. > You're also undervaluing that all of the ten states that have preeemptively banned RCV are Republican controlled I'm ignoring that because I think it's more part of the general Republican hysteria about voting integrity than it is a calculated move by Republican politicians specifically to ban RCV for preserving-the-two-party-system reasons. The question at hand is whether both parties would really rather not see RCV, and I see no evidence that there's going to be any significant movement from the Democrats towards it for general statewide elections any time soon. The Democrats just don't feel the need to make a big deal about it like the Republicans do at the moment.