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I think that's really underselling the political persecution that many have suffered in Cuba. It's far and away from just wanting reparations for land grabs. W

I think that's really underselling the political persecution that many have suffered in Cuba. It's far and away from just wanting reparations for land grabs. We have sanctions on Cuba for the same reason we have sanctions on Russia and Venezuela now- we don't want to fund what their government is doing, and allying with them gives us little to nothing in return. That said, it's pretty obvious that economic sanctions aren't bringing about regime change. I don't think anyone has the stomach for putting boots on the ground, though.

joshlemer 2y ago
It may not in the short or medium term cause regime change, but sufficiently large sanctions on a country do stop it from growing in influence, wealth and power. Eventually, after some number of generations, Cuba could be so poor in comparison to the rising tide of the rest of the world, that it's not even able to defend itself or maintain government control. At some point, the disparity in power becomes overwhelming and you have super high tech society surrounding stone age cave men.
- dullcrisp 2y ago
  Can that really happen? Won’t one of the visiting tourists bring news of the wheel or what have you eventually? Seems more likely sanctions would cause a steady state where the sanctioned country is some n months/years behind where it would otherwise be, speaking as a complete geopolitical layman anyway.
  - mrbombastic 2y ago
    Not OP but the problem is not awareness of modern solutions that prevents sanctioned societies from modernizing, the isolation from trade prevents local industry from growing which keeps society living at subsistence levels and when everyone is poor you don’t have a class of people with spare time or the resources necessary to build up local industry that brings about capital that brings about infrastructure modernization etc.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  The problem is that not enough nations are participating in the sanctions. Multiple generations should have been plenty of time, especially given the harms done to the population in the interim.
tuxoko 2y ago
> That said, it's pretty obvious that economic sanctions aren't bringing about regime change. On the flip side, you have China, where US pretty much helped build up their economy and hoped for a peaceful and democratic outcome. How well did that go?
- ImJamal 2y ago
  The USSR and China and prime examples of sanctioning vs opening up. One is still around and persucting its people and the other is on the dust bin of history. The problem with the Cuba sanctions is that a large chunk of countries aren't sanctioning Cuba. If everybody got behind the sanctions regime change would happen. Half assing it won't cut it.
  - sumedh 2y ago
    > the other is on the dust bin of history. and yet US is spending taxpayer money to defend Ukraine.
    - arrosenberg 2y ago
      Why wouldn’t we spend a small fraction of our military budget on bleeding an adversary dry?
      - jazzyjackson 2y ago
        same reason you don't corner a rabid animal
        stale2002 2y ago
        They aren't corned though. All they have to do is leave. Then they stop losing so many troops and they have their sanctions lifted.
        hunchback_ 2y ago
thinkcontext 2y ago
> allying with them gives us little to nothing in return. Recent events have shown that to be very much not the case. Over the past few weeks we've had news of the Russian Navy paying port calls and the Chinese building major signals intelligence capabilities. Wouldn't it be better to have them as an ally? It's always interesting to contrast our relationships with Cuba vs Vietnam. We fought a long hot war with Vietnam yet today we have good relations with them. Obviously we can't say we would have a good relationship with Cuba if we had been nicer to them but it certainly makes me think.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  > Wouldn't it be better to have them as an ally? I strongly suspect the possibility of normalizing relations while the Castros held power would have been impossible. I had actually expected some progress on this front after they got new blood in a few years ago, but he's much the same, and given their relations with other sanctioned countries like North Korea, and calling Israel a terrorist state, I don't really see much desire for change from either side.
slantedview 2y ago
> We have sanctions on Cuba for the same reason we have sanctions on Russia and Venezuela Many senior government officials over the years, including then Vice President Cheney, have plainly said that our interest in Venezuela is their oil. The sanctions, as in any country, are about wanting control over their resources.
refurb 2y ago
[flagged]
- defrost 2y ago
  I find it odd when people cast "the left" as some kind of homogeneous singular mass. It seems divorced from reality.
  - refurb 2y ago
    My statement doesn't assume a homogenous singular mass. There are opinions that come from different groups on the political spectrum, that pop up again and again and can be regarded as "common beliefs". My comment is based on that.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  There is a huge gap between overthrowing regimes to put your own dictator in place, and not putting sanctions toward a neighboring country. Most people are pushing for the latter, to get a more neutral approach to foreign relations.
- keybored 2y ago
  - Supporting regimes - Working against them with sanctions Don’t you see any other options here?
ossobuco 2y ago
> we don't want to fund what their government is doing What is their government doing that is so terrible? Anyway let's suppose Cuba is a brutal dictatorship, even though it really isn't by any metric. Why are there no sanctions on Saudi Arabia? Why no sanctions on Taiwan during the white terror? Why no sanctions on Chile when they threw alive protesters from flying helicopters? I could go on for a while.
- hyperliner 2y ago
  [dead]
- hollandheese 2y ago
  >What is their government doing that is so terrible? Surviving while Communist.
- phyzix5761 2y ago
  My whole family was murdered by the government of Cuba because they verbally disagreed with Fidel and communism. No crimes other than speaking out were committed. That's what they're doing that is so terrible.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    That's how revolutions work, if you disagree you usually get killed. The thing is that people would get killed for disagreeing even under Batista. If your family was happy with Batista then I don't think they were in a clean line of business.
    - zdragnar 2y ago
      The US did put an arms embargo on Batista's government, though far too late given the violent suppression of the protests towards the end.
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        I agree, especially considering that Batista had been sold arms until 1958, when the fights with the rebels had been ongoing for a while already (1956 I believe). The result is that Batista fought the rebels using USA weapons, embargo or not.

joshlemer 2y ago

It may not in the short or medium term cause regime change, but sufficiently large sanctions on a country do stop it from growing in influence, wealth and power. Eventually, after some number of generations, Cuba could be so poor in comparison to the rising tide of the rest of the world, that it's not even able to defend itself or maintain government control. At some point, the disparity in power becomes overwhelming and you have super high tech society surrounding stone age cave men.

dullcrisp 2y ago
Can that really happen? Won’t one of the visiting tourists bring news of the wheel or what have you eventually? Seems more likely sanctions would cause a steady state where the sanctioned country is some n months/years behind where it would otherwise be, speaking as a complete geopolitical layman anyway.
- mrbombastic 2y ago
  Not OP but the problem is not awareness of modern solutions that prevents sanctioned societies from modernizing, the isolation from trade prevents local industry from growing which keeps society living at subsistence levels and when everyone is poor you don’t have a class of people with spare time or the resources necessary to build up local industry that brings about capital that brings about infrastructure modernization etc.
zdragnar 2y ago
The problem is that not enough nations are participating in the sanctions. Multiple generations should have been plenty of time, especially given the harms done to the population in the interim.

tuxoko 2y ago

> That said, it's pretty obvious that economic sanctions aren't bringing about regime change. On the flip side, you have China, where US pretty much helped build up their economy and hoped for a peaceful and democratic outcome. How well did that go?

ImJamal 2y ago
The USSR and China and prime examples of sanctioning vs opening up. One is still around and persucting its people and the other is on the dust bin of history. The problem with the Cuba sanctions is that a large chunk of countries aren't sanctioning Cuba. If everybody got behind the sanctions regime change would happen. Half assing it won't cut it.
- sumedh 2y ago
  > the other is on the dust bin of history. and yet US is spending taxpayer money to defend Ukraine.
  - arrosenberg 2y ago
    Why wouldn’t we spend a small fraction of our military budget on bleeding an adversary dry?
    - jazzyjackson 2y ago
      same reason you don't corner a rabid animal
      - stale2002 2y ago
        They aren't corned though. All they have to do is leave. Then they stop losing so many troops and they have their sanctions lifted.
        hunchback_ 2y ago

thinkcontext 2y ago

> allying with them gives us little to nothing in return. Recent events have shown that to be very much not the case. Over the past few weeks we've had news of the Russian Navy paying port calls and the Chinese building major signals intelligence capabilities. Wouldn't it be better to have them as an ally? It's always interesting to contrast our relationships with Cuba vs Vietnam. We fought a long hot war with Vietnam yet today we have good relations with them. Obviously we can't say we would have a good relationship with Cuba if we had been nicer to them but it certainly makes me think.

zdragnar 2y ago
> Wouldn't it be better to have them as an ally? I strongly suspect the possibility of normalizing relations while the Castros held power would have been impossible. I had actually expected some progress on this front after they got new blood in a few years ago, but he's much the same, and given their relations with other sanctioned countries like North Korea, and calling Israel a terrorist state, I don't really see much desire for change from either side.

slantedview 2y ago

> We have sanctions on Cuba for the same reason we have sanctions on Russia and Venezuela Many senior government officials over the years, including then Vice President Cheney, have plainly said that our interest in Venezuela is their oil. The sanctions, as in any country, are about wanting control over their resources.

refurb 2y ago

[flagged]

defrost 2y ago
I find it odd when people cast "the left" as some kind of homogeneous singular mass. It seems divorced from reality.
- refurb 2y ago
  My statement doesn't assume a homogenous singular mass. There are opinions that come from different groups on the political spectrum, that pop up again and again and can be regarded as "common beliefs". My comment is based on that.
makeitdouble 2y ago
There is a huge gap between overthrowing regimes to put your own dictator in place, and not putting sanctions toward a neighboring country. Most people are pushing for the latter, to get a more neutral approach to foreign relations.
keybored 2y ago
- Supporting regimes - Working against them with sanctions Don’t you see any other options here?

ossobuco 2y ago

> we don't want to fund what their government is doing What is their government doing that is so terrible? Anyway let's suppose Cuba is a brutal dictatorship, even though it really isn't by any metric. Why are there no sanctions on Saudi Arabia? Why no sanctions on Taiwan during the white terror? Why no sanctions on Chile when they threw alive protesters from flying helicopters? I could go on for a while.

hyperliner 2y ago
[dead]
hollandheese 2y ago
>What is their government doing that is so terrible? Surviving while Communist.
phyzix5761 2y ago
My whole family was murdered by the government of Cuba because they verbally disagreed with Fidel and communism. No crimes other than speaking out were committed. That's what they're doing that is so terrible.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  That's how revolutions work, if you disagree you usually get killed. The thing is that people would get killed for disagreeing even under Batista. If your family was happy with Batista then I don't think they were in a clean line of business.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    The US did put an arms embargo on Batista's government, though far too late given the violent suppression of the protests towards the end.
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      I agree, especially considering that Batista had been sold arms until 1958, when the fights with the rebels had been ongoing for a while already (1956 I believe). The result is that Batista fought the rebels using USA weapons, embargo or not.