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That's because you are comparing it with our current systems. You have to compare it with what it existed before, basically people relieving themselves everywhe

That's because you are comparing it with our current systems. You have to compare it with what it existed before, basically people relieving themselves everywhere.

Wytwwww 2y ago
I don't think Romans invented sewage systems or plumbing. That existed all over the Mediterranean for hundreds of years prior we just don't know much about them (no written sources, less archaeological research/evidence etc.).
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  > no written sources, less archaeological research/evidence etc. Makes sense. So how do you know?
  - Wytwwww 2y ago
    > So how do you know? less != none There are of course plenty of published papers and research. Just way less exposure in popular history
    - AlbertCory 2y ago
      > plenty of published papers and research such as?
      - Wytwwww 2y ago
        I'm not a library, also search engine are a thing... but: Athens: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272501188_Drainage_and_Sewerage_Systems_at_Ancient_Athens_Greece https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272501188_Drainage_... Pergamon: https://www.dainst.blog/transpergmikro/new-insights-and-questions-on-the-water-supply-system/ https://www.dainst.blog/transpergmikro/new-insights-and-ques... (42 km pipeline) Syracuse and others https://www.sci-hub.wf/10.2307/3102954 https://www.sci-hub.wf/10.2307/3102954
- srean 2y ago
  Hundreds of years and Mediterranean you say... It boggles my mind that Indus valley civilization had flush toilets. That would be roughly 3000~2600 B.C. Its both sad and ironic in the context of some of the poorly serviced parts of India (sanitarily speaking). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet#History
  - Wytwwww 2y ago
    > Hundreds of years Was being conservative. It was still thousands, if we must go that road e.g. the Minoans had sewage and water supply systems (IIRC earliest evidence is from 1900-1700 BC, so I guess India "wins" this one...)
    - srean 2y ago
      I was being tongue in cheek about that one. Winning/losing, nah its not about that. Its about whetting one's curiosity and to be filled with wonder about human's accomplished with a strange attractor on scatological humor.
  - fransje26 2y ago
    > Its both sad and ironic in the context of some of the poorly serviced parts of India (sanitarily speaking) Regression is real. We should not forget that when confronted with the level of nonsense threatening the very fabric of our social cohesion and societal model in recent years.
- kergonath 2y ago
  No written sources from around the Mediterranean before Rome? Also, no archaeological evidence? You must be joking. I am not saying the Romans were the first, but surely we can do better than “of course there were others, but we don’t know”.
  - Wytwwww 2y ago
    > You must be joking. About what? Are there any surviving pre-Roman architectural manuals or treatises? Or other significant sources? (not rhetorical questions, I'm not a professional historian and might be missing something and in any case it would be very interesting to read about them). > we don’t know We (well not we... usually only enthusiasts/people working in the area) do of course know a lot. Just quite a bit less than about the Romans. What matters the most here is that Greek/etc. plumbing/sanitary practices have very little exposure in popular history.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
      Well, it depends on what you mean by "popular" history. Popular, were? I grew up in Greece and I learned early on about the Minoan palaces with running water (and internal heating). As to the sanitary practices of mainland Greeks, I remember this joke, variously starring Aesop or Socrates: Aesop (or Socraters) goes to the public baths. He takes off his clothes, enters the water, rubs himself, etc, then comes out and says to the official: "that was great. Now, were do I go to get cleaned?". Greeks had public baths, like the Romans and they were probably as filthy as those of the Romans. I've also seen plenty of archeological evidence of plumbing and sewage in various museums around Athens. IIRC there is a section of the floor in the Akropolis Museum covered by glass so one can see the underlying archeological layers, including the terracotta pipes used to carry water. These may have been from Roman times though, I can't say I remember. (Theories those pipes carried steam for ancient Greek robots with cogwheel brains have been debunked).
larsga 2y ago
Not just what existed before, but also after. The normal toilet on Scandinavian farms into the mid-19th century was basically just a pole suspended between two houses. What people "produced" just dropped on the ground below the pole.

That's because you are comparing it with our current systems. You have to compare it with what it existed before, basically people relieving themselves everywhere.

Wytwwww 2y ago

I don't think Romans invented sewage systems or plumbing. That existed all over the Mediterranean for hundreds of years prior we just don't know much about them (no written sources, less archaeological research/evidence etc.).

AlbertCory 2y ago
> no written sources, less archaeological research/evidence etc. Makes sense. So how do you know?
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  > So how do you know? less != none There are of course plenty of published papers and research. Just way less exposure in popular history
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    > plenty of published papers and research such as?
    - Wytwwww 2y ago
      I'm not a library, also search engine are a thing... but: Athens: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272501188_Drainage_and_Sewerage_Systems_at_Ancient_Athens_Greece https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272501188_Drainage_... Pergamon: https://www.dainst.blog/transpergmikro/new-insights-and-questions-on-the-water-supply-system/ https://www.dainst.blog/transpergmikro/new-insights-and-ques... (42 km pipeline) Syracuse and others https://www.sci-hub.wf/10.2307/3102954 https://www.sci-hub.wf/10.2307/3102954
srean 2y ago
Hundreds of years and Mediterranean you say... It boggles my mind that Indus valley civilization had flush toilets. That would be roughly 3000~2600 B.C. Its both sad and ironic in the context of some of the poorly serviced parts of India (sanitarily speaking). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet#History
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  > Hundreds of years Was being conservative. It was still thousands, if we must go that road e.g. the Minoans had sewage and water supply systems (IIRC earliest evidence is from 1900-1700 BC, so I guess India "wins" this one...)
  - srean 2y ago
    I was being tongue in cheek about that one. Winning/losing, nah its not about that. Its about whetting one's curiosity and to be filled with wonder about human's accomplished with a strange attractor on scatological humor.
- fransje26 2y ago
  > Its both sad and ironic in the context of some of the poorly serviced parts of India (sanitarily speaking) Regression is real. We should not forget that when confronted with the level of nonsense threatening the very fabric of our social cohesion and societal model in recent years.
kergonath 2y ago
No written sources from around the Mediterranean before Rome? Also, no archaeological evidence? You must be joking. I am not saying the Romans were the first, but surely we can do better than “of course there were others, but we don’t know”.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  > You must be joking. About what? Are there any surviving pre-Roman architectural manuals or treatises? Or other significant sources? (not rhetorical questions, I'm not a professional historian and might be missing something and in any case it would be very interesting to read about them). > we don’t know We (well not we... usually only enthusiasts/people working in the area) do of course know a lot. Just quite a bit less than about the Romans. What matters the most here is that Greek/etc. plumbing/sanitary practices have very little exposure in popular history.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    Well, it depends on what you mean by "popular" history. Popular, were? I grew up in Greece and I learned early on about the Minoan palaces with running water (and internal heating). As to the sanitary practices of mainland Greeks, I remember this joke, variously starring Aesop or Socrates: Aesop (or Socraters) goes to the public baths. He takes off his clothes, enters the water, rubs himself, etc, then comes out and says to the official: "that was great. Now, were do I go to get cleaned?". Greeks had public baths, like the Romans and they were probably as filthy as those of the Romans. I've also seen plenty of archeological evidence of plumbing and sewage in various museums around Athens. IIRC there is a section of the floor in the Akropolis Museum covered by glass so one can see the underlying archeological layers, including the terracotta pipes used to carry water. These may have been from Roman times though, I can't say I remember. (Theories those pipes carried steam for ancient Greek robots with cogwheel brains have been debunked).

larsga 2y ago

Not just what existed before, but also after. The normal toilet on Scandinavian farms into the mid-19th century was basically just a pole suspended between two houses. What people "produced" just dropped on the ground below the pole.