5 ms·

"Despite their large multi-seat public latrines with washing facilities, sewer systems, sanitation legislation, fountains and piped drinking water from aqueduct

by arbuge 2y ago

"Despite their large multi-seat public latrines with washing facilities, sewer systems, sanitation legislation, fountains and piped drinking water from aqueducts, we see the widespread presence of whipworm (Trichuris trichiura), roundworm (Ascaris lumbricoides) and Entamoeba histolytica that causes dysentery. This would suggest that the public sanitation measures were insufficient to protect the population from parasites spread by fecal contamination. Ectoparasites such as fleas, head lice, body lice, pubic lice and bed bugs were also present, and delousing combs have been found. The evidence fails to demonstrate that the Roman culture of regular bathing in the public baths reduced the prevalence of these parasites." I would think that the communal nature of the latrines and baths would actually have contributed to increasing the incidence of those parasites, rather than decreasing them.

welder 2y ago
Especially because they used shared reusable sponges to wipe instead of bidet
- shaky-carrousel 2y ago
  It was probably used as a toilet brush.
  - jowdones 2y ago
    I swear I read "toothbrush". Took me 4 or 5 passes to realize it's "toilet". Joking, maybe they did use the sponge alternatively as a bottom brush and tooth brush. Not in this order, probably :)
  - ghodith 2y ago
    I don't think there was anything to brush, normally just an elevated hole with running water underneath
  - palisade 2y ago
    Nope, it was use in the butt itself.
    - brnt 2y ago
      Username checks out...
- kuschku 2y ago
  They didn't - they used ripped pieces of fabric and cloth to wipe themselves. They used the sponges to clear obstructions, somewhat like a combined toilet brush / plunger.
  - palisade 2y ago
    Hate to break it to you, the sponge was for their butt. And, in Asia they didn't have a sponge they just used a stick.
    - quonn 2y ago
      No it wasn‘t.
      - palisade 2y ago
        https://daily.jstor.org/this-is-how-they-wiped-themselves-in-ancient-rome/ https://daily.jstor.org/this-is-how-they-wiped-themselves-in... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_stick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_stick
    - kuschku 2y ago
      That was debunked over a decade ago. > The researcher Gilbert Wiplinger put forward a theory on the use of the xylospongium and it seems much more credible. He suggests it was used for secondary cleaning of ancient lavatories in a similar form in which modern toilet brooms are used. > The discovery of scraps of cloth in an ancient septic tank in Herculaneum led also environmental archaeologist Mark Robinson to conclude that scraps were used for wiping instead of a sponge. Take a look at the Spa Sanitas Per Aquam conference proceedings from 2009 for more details.
  - robocat 2y ago
    > ripped pieces of fabric and cloth I would have assumed that old fabric was a valuable resource. Used fabric is essentially rubbish now so we don't see that. Ragman or rag merchant used to be a job. Only the very wealthy would use rags that way I would guess.
practicemaths 2y ago
I think contextually it depends. If you compare rural living to urban living, then maybe you could say latrines and baths contributed to increase in parasites. However that's a bad comparison. What would be better is compare similar levels of urbanization (population density) with and without latrines & baths. I imagine the latter may be more sanitary.
- prerok 2y ago
  Exactly. I wonder/think that reports from medieval and early modern age London were much worse.
  - LtWorf 2y ago
    Not that london in 1850s was much better (see "the great stink")
- agumonkey 2y ago
  I wonder how bad was the early onset of cities compared to small groups near clean natural resources. Did bathing in a river prove healthier ? the amount of flow would carry away toxic waste rapidly I guess.
shaky-carrousel 2y ago
That's because you are comparing it with our current systems. You have to compare it with what it existed before, basically people relieving themselves everywhere.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  I don't think Romans invented sewage systems or plumbing. That existed all over the Mediterranean for hundreds of years prior we just don't know much about them (no written sources, less archaeological research/evidence etc.).
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    > no written sources, less archaeological research/evidence etc. Makes sense. So how do you know?
    - Wytwwww 2y ago
      > So how do you know? less != none There are of course plenty of published papers and research. Just way less exposure in popular history
      - AlbertCory 2y ago
        > plenty of published papers and research such as?
        Wytwwww 2y ago
        I'm not a library, also search engine are a thing... but: Athens: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272501188_Drainage_and_Sewerage_Systems_at_Ancient_Athens_Greece https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272501188_Drainage_... Pergamon: https://www.dainst.blog/transpergmikro/new-insights-and-questions-on-the-water-supply-system/ https://www.dainst.blog/transpergmikro/new-insights-and-ques... (42 km pipeline) Syracuse and others https://www.sci-hub.wf/10.2307/3102954 https://www.sci-hub.wf/10.2307/3102954
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
space_oddity 2y ago
Agree, facilities such as latrines and baths likely contributed to the spread of parasites rather than mitigating it
peoplefromibiza 2y ago
> rather than decreasing them Romans used sponges to clean their butt in public toilets, but sponges were shared. I guess that didn't help...
- wdh505 2y ago
  I think they got a daily vinegar ration to soak the sponge and make it less smelly. Some believe that the sponge offered to christ on the cross was a poo vinegar sponge.
dredmorbius 2y ago
Centralised latrines with waste diverted from freshwater supplies would be a net-net win over, say, backyard privvies which soaked directly into adjacent wells and surface streams. The latter was the case in cities such as London and New York well into the 19th, and early 20th, centuries. Keep in mind that the haulage of human waste itself ("night soil" in some cultures) was a major activity with its dedicated labour pool (pardon the mental image...), though that was in part based on social shunning of those who were so employed. Concentrations of people create hygenic issues regardless. On balance, Romes latrines were probably a net benefit, though of course the Romans lacked modern understanding of disease, both in parasitic and infectious forms. Even today, roughly 85% of the increase in human longevity, much due to decreased infant and child mortality, is attributable to general hygiene, municipal sanitation measures (both of wastes such as sewerage, solid rubbish, and of improved air quality; and of vastly improved water and food quality. Other public health measures, including quarantine, epidemiological surveillance, and vaccinations, also played a huge role. I first became aware of this through Laurie Garrett's book The Coming Plague (1994): <https://search.worldcat.org/title/30701925 https://search.worldcat.org/title/30701925> See "The Conquest of Pestilence in New York City" for a ... graphic ... expression of the trends in mortality from ~1800 through 2000 or so: <https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uTWEATUzgxk/TXQoTibILtI/AAAAAAAAAAM/eyirotYDmXo/s1600/2004_01_healthstat.jpg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uTWEATUzgxk/TXQoTibILtI/AAAAAAAAA...>
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > Even today, roughly 85% of the increase in human longevity, much due to decreased infant and child mortality, is attributable to general hygiene, municipal sanitation measures (both of wastes such as sewerage, solid rubbish, and of improved air quality; and of vastly improved water and food quality. Other public health measures, including quarantine, epidemiological surveillance, and vaccinations, also played a huge role. Additionally, humanity gained a broad selection of antibiotics in the same time. Infections that used to be pretty deadly (e.g. syphilis, the plague) or debilitating (meningitis, ear infections, wound infections) are easily treatable. Even extremely deadly viral infections such as HIV or mildly deadly but highly contagious ones such as SARS-CoV-2 have symptomatic and suppression treatments. The challenge is that bacteria evolved over the last 100-ish years just as well and a wide class of antibiotics are useless against some strains (e.g. e-coli) nowadays... and what used to be "reserve antibiotics" to be used only if a human's life was in danger is routinely fed to livestock to make it grow better, with the predictable result of resistance genes evolving in the livestock and mixing said resistance genes with bacteria prevalent in humans.
beloch 2y ago
If you go to the public latrine at Ephesus today, it looks pretty awesome. It's out in the air. Nice views in all directions. If you can get over the communal nature of it, it seems like a fantastic spot to do your business. In Roman times, public latrines were places of last resort. They were typically enclosed, poorly ventilated, and notorious for rats and explosions[1]. For most Romans, making it home to your own commode was vastly preferred. This brings us to a funny quirk of roman home design. Toilets were usually located in kitchens and "flushed" with wastewater from the kitchen. In most homes these toilets were connected to cesspits that were periodically emptied, and not to the sewers. [1]https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/rats-exploding-toilet-seats-and-demons-deep-hazards-roman-sewers-004611 https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/rats-e...
- notnmeyer 2y ago
  aside from this being appalling, “notorious for rats and explosions” is pretty funny
- elcritch 2y ago
  So basically what it's like today with porta potties?
  - omnicognate 2y ago
    You have a porta potty in your kitchen?
- heywoodlh 2y ago
  > https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/rats-exploding-toilet-seats-and-demons-deep-hazards-roman-sewers-004611 https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/rats-e... This was a fascinating read, thanks! For anyone curious of why public latrines exploded: > Even worse, these public latrines were notorious for terrifying customers when flames exploded from their seat openings. These were caused by gas explosions of hydrogen sulphide (H2S) and methane (CH4) that were rank as well as frightening.

by arbuge 2y ago

welder 2y ago

Especially because they used shared reusable sponges to wipe instead of bidet

shaky-carrousel 2y ago
It was probably used as a toilet brush.
- jowdones 2y ago
  I swear I read "toothbrush". Took me 4 or 5 passes to realize it's "toilet". Joking, maybe they did use the sponge alternatively as a bottom brush and tooth brush. Not in this order, probably :)
- ghodith 2y ago
  I don't think there was anything to brush, normally just an elevated hole with running water underneath
- palisade 2y ago
  Nope, it was use in the butt itself.
  - brnt 2y ago
    Username checks out...
kuschku 2y ago
They didn't - they used ripped pieces of fabric and cloth to wipe themselves. They used the sponges to clear obstructions, somewhat like a combined toilet brush / plunger.
- palisade 2y ago
  Hate to break it to you, the sponge was for their butt. And, in Asia they didn't have a sponge they just used a stick.
  - quonn 2y ago
    No it wasn‘t.
    - palisade 2y ago
      https://daily.jstor.org/this-is-how-they-wiped-themselves-in-ancient-rome/ https://daily.jstor.org/this-is-how-they-wiped-themselves-in... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_stick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_stick
  - kuschku 2y ago
    That was debunked over a decade ago. > The researcher Gilbert Wiplinger put forward a theory on the use of the xylospongium and it seems much more credible. He suggests it was used for secondary cleaning of ancient lavatories in a similar form in which modern toilet brooms are used. > The discovery of scraps of cloth in an ancient septic tank in Herculaneum led also environmental archaeologist Mark Robinson to conclude that scraps were used for wiping instead of a sponge. Take a look at the Spa Sanitas Per Aquam conference proceedings from 2009 for more details.
- robocat 2y ago
  > ripped pieces of fabric and cloth I would have assumed that old fabric was a valuable resource. Used fabric is essentially rubbish now so we don't see that. Ragman or rag merchant used to be a job. Only the very wealthy would use rags that way I would guess.

practicemaths 2y ago

I think contextually it depends. If you compare rural living to urban living, then maybe you could say latrines and baths contributed to increase in parasites. However that's a bad comparison. What would be better is compare similar levels of urbanization (population density) with and without latrines & baths. I imagine the latter may be more sanitary.

prerok 2y ago
Exactly. I wonder/think that reports from medieval and early modern age London were much worse.
- LtWorf 2y ago
  Not that london in 1850s was much better (see "the great stink")
agumonkey 2y ago
I wonder how bad was the early onset of cities compared to small groups near clean natural resources. Did bathing in a river prove healthier ? the amount of flow would carry away toxic waste rapidly I guess.

shaky-carrousel 2y ago

That's because you are comparing it with our current systems. You have to compare it with what it existed before, basically people relieving themselves everywhere.

Wytwwww 2y ago
I don't think Romans invented sewage systems or plumbing. That existed all over the Mediterranean for hundreds of years prior we just don't know much about them (no written sources, less archaeological research/evidence etc.).
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  > no written sources, less archaeological research/evidence etc. Makes sense. So how do you know?
  - Wytwwww 2y ago
    > So how do you know? less != none There are of course plenty of published papers and research. Just way less exposure in popular history
    - AlbertCory 2y ago
      > plenty of published papers and research such as?
      - Wytwwww 2y ago
        I'm not a library, also search engine are a thing... but: Athens: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272501188_Drainage_and_Sewerage_Systems_at_Ancient_Athens_Greece https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272501188_Drainage_... Pergamon: https://www.dainst.blog/transpergmikro/new-insights-and-questions-on-the-water-supply-system/ https://www.dainst.blog/transpergmikro/new-insights-and-ques... (42 km pipeline) Syracuse and others https://www.sci-hub.wf/10.2307/3102954 https://www.sci-hub.wf/10.2307/3102954

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

space_oddity 2y ago

Agree, facilities such as latrines and baths likely contributed to the spread of parasites rather than mitigating it

peoplefromibiza 2y ago

> rather than decreasing them Romans used sponges to clean their butt in public toilets, but sponges were shared. I guess that didn't help...

wdh505 2y ago
I think they got a daily vinegar ration to soak the sponge and make it less smelly. Some believe that the sponge offered to christ on the cross was a poo vinegar sponge.

dredmorbius 2y ago

Centralised latrines with waste diverted from freshwater supplies would be a net-net win over, say, backyard privvies which soaked directly into adjacent wells and surface streams. The latter was the case in cities such as London and New York well into the 19th, and early 20th, centuries. Keep in mind that the haulage of human waste itself ("night soil" in some cultures) was a major activity with its dedicated labour pool (pardon the mental image...), though that was in part based on social shunning of those who were so employed. Concentrations of people create hygenic issues regardless. On balance, Romes latrines were probably a net benefit, though of course the Romans lacked modern understanding of disease, both in parasitic and infectious forms. Even today, roughly 85% of the increase in human longevity, much due to decreased infant and child mortality, is attributable to general hygiene, municipal sanitation measures (both of wastes such as sewerage, solid rubbish, and of improved air quality; and of vastly improved water and food quality. Other public health measures, including quarantine, epidemiological surveillance, and vaccinations, also played a huge role. I first became aware of this through Laurie Garrett's book The Coming Plague (1994): <https://search.worldcat.org/title/30701925 https://search.worldcat.org/title/30701925> See "The Conquest of Pestilence in New York City" for a ... graphic ... expression of the trends in mortality from ~1800 through 2000 or so: <https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uTWEATUzgxk/TXQoTibILtI/AAAAAAAAAAM/eyirotYDmXo/s1600/2004_01_healthstat.jpg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uTWEATUzgxk/TXQoTibILtI/AAAAAAAAA...>

mschuster91 2y ago
> Even today, roughly 85% of the increase in human longevity, much due to decreased infant and child mortality, is attributable to general hygiene, municipal sanitation measures (both of wastes such as sewerage, solid rubbish, and of improved air quality; and of vastly improved water and food quality. Other public health measures, including quarantine, epidemiological surveillance, and vaccinations, also played a huge role. Additionally, humanity gained a broad selection of antibiotics in the same time. Infections that used to be pretty deadly (e.g. syphilis, the plague) or debilitating (meningitis, ear infections, wound infections) are easily treatable. Even extremely deadly viral infections such as HIV or mildly deadly but highly contagious ones such as SARS-CoV-2 have symptomatic and suppression treatments. The challenge is that bacteria evolved over the last 100-ish years just as well and a wide class of antibiotics are useless against some strains (e.g. e-coli) nowadays... and what used to be "reserve antibiotics" to be used only if a human's life was in danger is routinely fed to livestock to make it grow better, with the predictable result of resistance genes evolving in the livestock and mixing said resistance genes with bacteria prevalent in humans.

beloch 2y ago

If you go to the public latrine at Ephesus today, it looks pretty awesome. It's out in the air. Nice views in all directions. If you can get over the communal nature of it, it seems like a fantastic spot to do your business. In Roman times, public latrines were places of last resort. They were typically enclosed, poorly ventilated, and notorious for rats and explosions[1]. For most Romans, making it home to your own commode was vastly preferred. This brings us to a funny quirk of roman home design. Toilets were usually located in kitchens and "flushed" with wastewater from the kitchen. In most homes these toilets were connected to cesspits that were periodically emptied, and not to the sewers. [1]https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/rats-exploding-toilet-seats-and-demons-deep-hazards-roman-sewers-004611 https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/rats-e...

notnmeyer 2y ago
aside from this being appalling, “notorious for rats and explosions” is pretty funny
elcritch 2y ago
So basically what it's like today with porta potties?
- omnicognate 2y ago
  You have a porta potty in your kitchen?
heywoodlh 2y ago
> https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/rats-exploding-toilet-seats-and-demons-deep-hazards-roman-sewers-004611 https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/rats-e... This was a fascinating read, thanks! For anyone curious of why public latrines exploded: > Even worse, these public latrines were notorious for terrifying customers when flames exploded from their seat openings. These were caused by gas explosions of hydrogen sulphide (H2S) and methane (CH4) that were rank as well as frightening.