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True. It's the same with projects like 'The Ocean Cleanup'. In Mainland China there's an army of underpaid elderly street sweepers earning basically nothing (2k

True. It's the same with projects like 'The Ocean Cleanup'. In Mainland China there's an army of underpaid elderly street sweepers earning basically nothing (2k RMB/month), who constantly clean up after folks mindlessly dropping their trash on the streets. Or take the craze around drugs like semaglutide (Ozempic) in the West. Technologists constantly come up with solutions that directly or indirectly support immoral behavior and unsustainable lifestyles. I'm not saying let's not have robots cleaning up. But first of all, before we look to such solutions, litterers should be fined to high heaven. Make it sting, so that these people don't even think about doing it anymore. Make it day fines, based on the person's income. They will learn to keep beaches clean that way.

dghlsakjg 2y ago
> Or take the craze around drugs like semaglutide (Ozempic) in the West. Technologists constantly come up with solutions that directly or indirectly support immoral behavior and unsustainable lifestyles. Why the dig at obesity? If there's anything we are learning from GLP-1 medications, it is that, for many, weight control is not a moral failing. Many of these people will have spent thousands on coaching, gyms, nutrition plans, counselling, and any other option to try to lose weight the 'hard' way. Literal blood sweat and tears. Statistically, those interventions don't work well in the long term. Plenty of the morally unimpeachable suffer from weight issues. Clearly there is a physiological component as well. This medication treats it. Is it also a moral failing to take a Tylenol to treat a hangover headache instead of suffering through the pain until it goes away? Maybe surgery patients should just tough it out, without anesthesia like they used to in the 1800s instead of taking the easy way out? People are treated for 'self-inflicted' physical issues constantly. Why are you picking on overweight ones?
- trompetenaccoun 2y ago
  Ozempic was approved in the US for treatment for type 2 diabetes, but over a third of users are taking it off-label, they have no history of diabetes¹. Of course one can phrase it in a way that makes it sound like they're suffering from a disease and are getting the "medication" they need. Would you say the same about folks using benzos off-label though? We use positive language (medication) or negative (drug abuse) depending on the picture we want to paint. The point is these are examples of things that shouldn't exist, because for most of us who're healthy and able bodied, we can take our trash and throw it in a bin. And we don't need to inject drugs, we should better train to be disciplined and eat less. Obesity in places like the US is mainly cultural. By trying to solve the problem with technology instead of changing the attitude towards health, they will only become more dependent on drugs. ¹ https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/27/health/semaglutide-equitable-access/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/27/health/semaglutide-equita...
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    Semaglutide for weight loss isn't off label. Using Semaglutide in the Ozempic auto-dispenser is off-label. Using it in a different syringe sold under the name Wegovy is the only difference. Same drug, different packaging. It is the exact same medication, delivered via injection, except one is sold in a fancier syringe. Either way, off-label usage of drugs doesn't bother me. If someone is using off-label Benzodiazepines as an effective treatment under the supervision of a competent doctor, that seems like a good thing. Sometimes I use bandaids to protect against blisters even though the packaging doesn't indicate that usage. It isn't a moral failing to get an effective use out of something that wasn't designed for it? > Obesity in places like the US is mainly cultural. By trying to solve the problem with technology instead of changing the attitude towards health, they will only become more dependent on drugs. What you aren't grasping is that actual experts don't see it this way. The use of Semaglutide points to the fact that obesity is caused, at least in part, by a hormonal imbalance. How is culture unbalancing hormones? Experts still don't understand why so many people in some areas are affected. Actual scientists have done controlled studies and found that culturally similar people in different geographies have wildly varying rates of obesity. We live in a culture, where (as you have proven) people will openly judge, insult and shame strangers for being fat. Being fat isn't culturally accepted anywhere (maybe a few isolated cultures are the exception). Nobody wants to be fat. There is a multi-billion dollar industry that serves people doing everything they can to NOT be fat, and it is notoriously ineffective. If being dependent on pharmaceutical intervention is what it takes to help people live longer, more independent lives, that costs society less in the long run, then that's fine. We happily accept lifelong pharmaceutical dependency for a range of conditions, including ones that are purely quality of life related. Do you go around telling burn victims that cosmetic reconstructive surgery is a moral failing? I understand that lifestyle affects weight. "Eat less and exercise more". Every fat person already knows this. People who have the willpower to get PHDs, to run successful companies, to do every difficult thing in life, fail at losing weight and keeping it off. Being fat is not a moral failing. Its like telling depressed people to cheer up. It doesn't work, and it isn't a moral failing to have clinical depression. Lifestyle choices can affect depression, and it is treatable without medication sometimes. But oftentimes pharmaceutical interventions are the best option.

dghlsakjg 2y ago

> Or take the craze around drugs like semaglutide (Ozempic) in the West. Technologists constantly come up with solutions that directly or indirectly support immoral behavior and unsustainable lifestyles. Why the dig at obesity? If there's anything we are learning from GLP-1 medications, it is that, for many, weight control is not a moral failing. Many of these people will have spent thousands on coaching, gyms, nutrition plans, counselling, and any other option to try to lose weight the 'hard' way. Literal blood sweat and tears. Statistically, those interventions don't work well in the long term. Plenty of the morally unimpeachable suffer from weight issues. Clearly there is a physiological component as well. This medication treats it. Is it also a moral failing to take a Tylenol to treat a hangover headache instead of suffering through the pain until it goes away? Maybe surgery patients should just tough it out, without anesthesia like they used to in the 1800s instead of taking the easy way out? People are treated for 'self-inflicted' physical issues constantly. Why are you picking on overweight ones?

trompetenaccoun 2y ago
Ozempic was approved in the US for treatment for type 2 diabetes, but over a third of users are taking it off-label, they have no history of diabetes¹. Of course one can phrase it in a way that makes it sound like they're suffering from a disease and are getting the "medication" they need. Would you say the same about folks using benzos off-label though? We use positive language (medication) or negative (drug abuse) depending on the picture we want to paint. The point is these are examples of things that shouldn't exist, because for most of us who're healthy and able bodied, we can take our trash and throw it in a bin. And we don't need to inject drugs, we should better train to be disciplined and eat less. Obesity in places like the US is mainly cultural. By trying to solve the problem with technology instead of changing the attitude towards health, they will only become more dependent on drugs. ¹ https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/27/health/semaglutide-equitable-access/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/27/health/semaglutide-equita...
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  Semaglutide for weight loss isn't off label. Using Semaglutide in the Ozempic auto-dispenser is off-label. Using it in a different syringe sold under the name Wegovy is the only difference. Same drug, different packaging. It is the exact same medication, delivered via injection, except one is sold in a fancier syringe. Either way, off-label usage of drugs doesn't bother me. If someone is using off-label Benzodiazepines as an effective treatment under the supervision of a competent doctor, that seems like a good thing. Sometimes I use bandaids to protect against blisters even though the packaging doesn't indicate that usage. It isn't a moral failing to get an effective use out of something that wasn't designed for it? > Obesity in places like the US is mainly cultural. By trying to solve the problem with technology instead of changing the attitude towards health, they will only become more dependent on drugs. What you aren't grasping is that actual experts don't see it this way. The use of Semaglutide points to the fact that obesity is caused, at least in part, by a hormonal imbalance. How is culture unbalancing hormones? Experts still don't understand why so many people in some areas are affected. Actual scientists have done controlled studies and found that culturally similar people in different geographies have wildly varying rates of obesity. We live in a culture, where (as you have proven) people will openly judge, insult and shame strangers for being fat. Being fat isn't culturally accepted anywhere (maybe a few isolated cultures are the exception). Nobody wants to be fat. There is a multi-billion dollar industry that serves people doing everything they can to NOT be fat, and it is notoriously ineffective. If being dependent on pharmaceutical intervention is what it takes to help people live longer, more independent lives, that costs society less in the long run, then that's fine. We happily accept lifelong pharmaceutical dependency for a range of conditions, including ones that are purely quality of life related. Do you go around telling burn victims that cosmetic reconstructive surgery is a moral failing? I understand that lifestyle affects weight. "Eat less and exercise more". Every fat person already knows this. People who have the willpower to get PHDs, to run successful companies, to do every difficult thing in life, fail at losing weight and keeping it off. Being fat is not a moral failing. Its like telling depressed people to cheer up. It doesn't work, and it isn't a moral failing to have clinical depression. Lifestyle choices can affect depression, and it is treatable without medication sometimes. But oftentimes pharmaceutical interventions are the best option.