4 ms·

You can be sure that the unselflimiting nature of individualism will eventually, or maybe soon, come up against the finite resources of the earth. The politica

You can be sure that the unselflimiting nature of individualism will eventually, or maybe soon, come up against the finite resources of the earth. The political impasse in the West is between those who prefer to call evil the lack of self-limitation, and those who prefer to call evil other-limitation. (Stoics were about self-limitation. to stay ontopic. What would they say about life-extension?) The following is written by a cranky guy, but unfortunately I could find on hand no better summary of the core idea. https://www.commentary.org/articles/gary-morson/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn-warned-west/ https://www.commentary.org/articles/gary-morson/aleksandr-so...

exe34 2y ago
> What would they say about life-extension? equanimity. if it can be had for a reasonable cost, and one is able to live a virtuous life, then one should seek it. it's like a starving soldier who upon finding abandoned food decides to eat it so that he can continue to serve his country (or his community, his friends, etc). if the cost of life extension is unvirtuous acts, like ecological vandalism, desperate seeking of wealth to pay for it, etc, then he would turn his back and say no, I have more than enough already.
- vinnyvichy 2y ago
  What's your utility function for life extension like, at t=0^{+}, t=T^{-}, t=T^{+}, and t=T+(time interval till the unvirtuous access life extension tech) (It doesn't matter, but I'd like to know :)
  - exe34 2y ago
    I'm afraid I don't really understand the question... I'm not familiar with this notation.
    - vinnyvichy 2y ago
      I'm ready to elaborate, but I'm talking about something like this. (I certainly hope not to sound like a lesswrong nut, which I certainly did this time) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-utility_function#:~:text=A%20Time%2FUtility%20Function%20(TUF,depending%20on%20its%20completion%20time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-utility_function#:~:text=.... I don't want to pretend to sound like I fully understand what's going on here, but I do think this is approximately the right framework to think about how individual agents decide to cooperate or not on life-extension tech. It's like a much more complicated prisoners dilemma- even with basic assumptions like "every agent thinks themselves virtuous and the other unvirtuous and refuses to communicate", it's already interesting to think about the shape. On the topic, it's also interesting to think of reproduction as a very primitive life extension tech.
      - exe34 2y ago
        > to think about how individual agents decide to cooperate or not on life-extension tech I think the sort of people that can afford it in the early years will be the sort that amass ungodly amounts of wealth and the sort that would be difficult to defend as virtuous in the Stoic sense. I personally am not a Stoic, I've been suicidal since I was 12 and the only reason I'm still here is that my survival instinct has kicked in every time so far. Indefinite life extension sounds like hell tbh. I'll serve my time as long as my body refuses to die, but I do not engage in any specific effort at life extension. PS: I vaguely get the time discount thingy. I will need to think about what it means.
        vinnyvichy 2y ago
        Thanks for engaging! Meaning may be hard to find sometimes, but in contrast to mindless accumulation, even a bit of it (arising from cooperation/coevolution) helps to keep us (philosophically) alive sometimes. I'm closer to an Epicurean than Stoic, but feel less suicidal as I grow older (and understand what some virtuous people before me have been searching for, why they kept searching. Which then brings bittersweet, more sweet than bitter, tears to my eyes) Let me know if/when you get any insights into the time discount thing, especially with regards to cooperative cognition. (One good place to start is what is meant by the global critical time in various related contexts, denoted by T in my earlier notation. E.g. can you have multiple GCTs? The plus and minus is to emphasize that the utility can be discontinuous at these points)

exe34 2y ago

> What would they say about life-extension? equanimity. if it can be had for a reasonable cost, and one is able to live a virtuous life, then one should seek it. it's like a starving soldier who upon finding abandoned food decides to eat it so that he can continue to serve his country (or his community, his friends, etc). if the cost of life extension is unvirtuous acts, like ecological vandalism, desperate seeking of wealth to pay for it, etc, then he would turn his back and say no, I have more than enough already.

vinnyvichy 2y ago
What's your utility function for life extension like, at t=0^{+}, t=T^{-}, t=T^{+}, and t=T+(time interval till the unvirtuous access life extension tech) (It doesn't matter, but I'd like to know :)
- exe34 2y ago
  I'm afraid I don't really understand the question... I'm not familiar with this notation.
  - vinnyvichy 2y ago
    I'm ready to elaborate, but I'm talking about something like this. (I certainly hope not to sound like a lesswrong nut, which I certainly did this time) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-utility_function#:~:text=A%20Time%2FUtility%20Function%20(TUF,depending%20on%20its%20completion%20time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-utility_function#:~:text=.... I don't want to pretend to sound like I fully understand what's going on here, but I do think this is approximately the right framework to think about how individual agents decide to cooperate or not on life-extension tech. It's like a much more complicated prisoners dilemma- even with basic assumptions like "every agent thinks themselves virtuous and the other unvirtuous and refuses to communicate", it's already interesting to think about the shape. On the topic, it's also interesting to think of reproduction as a very primitive life extension tech.
    - exe34 2y ago
      > to think about how individual agents decide to cooperate or not on life-extension tech I think the sort of people that can afford it in the early years will be the sort that amass ungodly amounts of wealth and the sort that would be difficult to defend as virtuous in the Stoic sense. I personally am not a Stoic, I've been suicidal since I was 12 and the only reason I'm still here is that my survival instinct has kicked in every time so far. Indefinite life extension sounds like hell tbh. I'll serve my time as long as my body refuses to die, but I do not engage in any specific effort at life extension. PS: I vaguely get the time discount thingy. I will need to think about what it means.
      - vinnyvichy 2y ago
        Thanks for engaging! Meaning may be hard to find sometimes, but in contrast to mindless accumulation, even a bit of it (arising from cooperation/coevolution) helps to keep us (philosophically) alive sometimes. I'm closer to an Epicurean than Stoic, but feel less suicidal as I grow older (and understand what some virtuous people before me have been searching for, why they kept searching. Which then brings bittersweet, more sweet than bitter, tears to my eyes) Let me know if/when you get any insights into the time discount thing, especially with regards to cooperative cognition. (One good place to start is what is meant by the global critical time in various related contexts, denoted by T in my earlier notation. E.g. can you have multiple GCTs? The plus and minus is to emphasize that the utility can be discontinuous at these points)