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We as a society need to start punishing incompetence the same way we punish malice. Of course, we also need to first start punishing individuals for intentiona

We as a society need to start punishing incompetence the same way we punish malice. Of course, we also need to first start punishing individuals for intentionally causing harm through their decisions even if the harm was caused indirectly through other people. Power allows people to distance themselves from the act. Distance should not affect the punishment.

worik 2y ago
> We as a society need to start punishing incompetence the same way we punish malice. Yes But competence is marketed The trade names like "Crowdstrike" and "Microsoft "
yourapostasy 2y ago
> Of course, we also need to first start punishing individuals for intentionally causing harm through their decisions even if the harm was caused indirectly through other people. Legal teams are way ahead of you here, by design. They’ve learned to factor out responsibility in such a diffuse manner the “indirectly” term loses nearly all its power the closer one gets to executive ranks and is a fig leaf when you reach C-levels and BoD levels. We couldn’t feasibly operate behemoth corporations otherwise in litigious environments. I personally suspect we cannot enshrine earnestness and character as metrics and KPI’s, even indirectly. From personal experience selling into many client organizations and being able to watch them make some sausage, this is where leadership over managing becomes a key distinction, and organizational culture over a long period measured in generations of decisions and actions implemented by a group with mean workforce tenure measured in decades becomes one of the few reliable signals. Would love to hear others’ experiences and observations.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
chuckadams 2y ago
So which individual engineer are you locking up and telling their kids that they don't get to see their mommy or daddy again? > intentionally causing harm Maybe we need to criminalize groundless accusations too.
- SturgeonsLaw 2y ago
  I hear it was that Ron guy's fault
- martin-t 2y ago
  Don't pretend you don't understand. Failures like this aren't an individual programmer's responsibility. I can guarantee you programmers have been asking to implement staggered releases and management shut them down. In fact another poster in this thread showed that even customers asked for that and were rejected with 50 pages of corporate BS which basically amounted to "we don't wanna". Same goes for other safety mechanisms like testing. > Maybe we need to criminalize groundless accusations too. I never accused them of intentionally causing harm. Please read my comment more carefully. I said what i said because in the current environment, even doing this intentionally would not lead to sufficient punishment to top management.

worik 2y ago

> We as a society need to start punishing incompetence the same way we punish malice. Yes But competence is marketed The trade names like "Crowdstrike" and "Microsoft "

yourapostasy 2y ago

> Of course, we also need to first start punishing individuals for intentionally causing harm through their decisions even if the harm was caused indirectly through other people. Legal teams are way ahead of you here, by design. They’ve learned to factor out responsibility in such a diffuse manner the “indirectly” term loses nearly all its power the closer one gets to executive ranks and is a fig leaf when you reach C-levels and BoD levels. We couldn’t feasibly operate behemoth corporations otherwise in litigious environments. I personally suspect we cannot enshrine earnestness and character as metrics and KPI’s, even indirectly. From personal experience selling into many client organizations and being able to watch them make some sausage, this is where leadership over managing becomes a key distinction, and organizational culture over a long period measured in generations of decisions and actions implemented by a group with mean workforce tenure measured in decades becomes one of the few reliable signals. Would love to hear others’ experiences and observations.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

chuckadams 2y ago

So which individual engineer are you locking up and telling their kids that they don't get to see their mommy or daddy again? > intentionally causing harm Maybe we need to criminalize groundless accusations too.

SturgeonsLaw 2y ago
I hear it was that Ron guy's fault
martin-t 2y ago
Don't pretend you don't understand. Failures like this aren't an individual programmer's responsibility. I can guarantee you programmers have been asking to implement staggered releases and management shut them down. In fact another poster in this thread showed that even customers asked for that and were rejected with 50 pages of corporate BS which basically amounted to "we don't wanna". Same goes for other safety mechanisms like testing. > Maybe we need to criminalize groundless accusations too. I never accused them of intentionally causing harm. Please read my comment more carefully. I said what i said because in the current environment, even doing this intentionally would not lead to sufficient punishment to top management.