4 ms·

I hate to be that person, but things have moved to automatic updates because security was even shittier when the user was expected to do it. I can't even imagi

I hate to be that person, but things have moved to automatic updates because security was even shittier when the user was expected to do it. I can't even imagine how much worse ransomware would be if, for example, Windows and browsers weren't updating themselves.

Drygord 2y ago
This is for critical infrastructure though. You AT LEAST test it out first on some machines
alexanderdmitri 2y ago
I feel like this is the fake reason given to try to hide the obvious reason: automatic updates are a power move that allows companies to retain control of products they've sold.
- exolymph 2y ago
  no reason why both can't be true — the security is overall better, and companies are happy to invest in advancing this paradigm because it gives them more control
  - alexanderdmitri 2y ago
    incentive can and does undermine the stated goal. what if the government decided to take control of everyone's investment portfolio to prevent the market doing bad things? or an airplane manufacturer gets takes control of its own safety certification process because obviously its in their best interest that their planes are safe? imposed curfew, everyone has to be inside their homes while its dark outside because most violent crimes occur at night?
- NegativeK 2y ago
  It's not fake reason; it's a very real solution to a very real problem. Of course companies are going to abuse it for grotesque profit motive, but that doesn't make their necessity a lie.
  - josephg 2y ago
    Yep. And even aside from security, its a nightmare needing to maintain multiple versions of a product. "Oh, our software is crashing? What version do you have? Oh, 4.5. Well, update 4.7 from 2 years ago may fix your problem, but we've also released major versions 5 and 6 since then - no, I'm not trying to upsell you ma'am. We'll pull up the code from that version and see if we can figure out the problem." Having evergreen software that just keeps itself up to date is marvellous. The Google Docs team only needs to care about the current version of their software. There are no documents saved with an old version. There's no need to backport fixes to old versions, and no QA teams that need to test backported security updates on 10 year old hardware. Its just a shame about, y'know, the aptly named crowdstrike.
    - chrisjj 2y ago
      > The Google Docs team only needs to care about the current version of their software. There are no documents saved with an old version. There sure are. I have dozens saved years ago.
      - josephg 2y ago
        Fine. But Google can mass-migrate all of them to a new format any time they want. They don’t have the situation you used to have with Word, where you needed to remember to Save As Word 2001 format or whatever so you could open the file on another computer. (And if you forgot, the file was unreadable). It was a huge pain.
        chrisjj 2y ago
        Yes it is better than the Word situation, but no it isn't not caring. There do exist old format docs and Google does have to care - to make that migration.
        josephg 2y ago
        Yes, they have to migrate once. But they don’t need to maintain 8 different versions of Word going back a decade, make sure all security patches get back ported (without breaking anything along the way), and make all of them are in some way cross compatible despite having differing feature sets. If google makes a new storage format they have to migrate old Google docs. But that’s a once off thing. When migrations happen, documents are only ever moved from old file formats to new file formats. With word, I need to be able to open an old document with the new version of word, make changes then re-save it so it’s compatible with the old version of word again. Then edit it on an old version of word and go back and forth. I’m sure the Google engineers are very busy. But by making Docs be evergreen software, they have a much easier problem to solve when it comes to this stuff. Nobody uses the version of Google docs from 6 months ago. You can’t. And that simplifies a lot of things.
cpill 2y ago
yeah, you don't want day to day security (a) changing daily (b) at the kennel level
__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
That may apply to things that need to be online, but... a lathe?
- krashidov 2y ago
  wouldn't the lathe need to be online to get the OTA update from Crowdstrike?
- fragmede 2y ago
  how much lathe-ing have you done recently? did you load files onto your CNC lathe with an SD card, and thus there is a computer, which needs updates, or are you thinking of a lathe that is a motor and a rubber band, and nothing else, from, like, high school woodshop?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 14 2y ago
    I bought a 3d printer years ago then let it sit collecting dust for like 2 or more years because I was intimidated by it. Finally started using it and was blown away how useful it has been to me. Then a long time later realized holy shit there are updates and upgrades one can easily do. I can add a camera and control everything and monitor everything from any online connected device. I always hated pulling out the sd card and bringing it to my computer and copying it over and back to the printer and so on. Being online makes things so much easier and faster. I have been rocking my basic printer for a few years now and have not paid much attention to the scene and then started seeing these multi color prints holy shit am I slow and behind the times. The newer printers are pretty rad but I will give props to my Anycubic Mega it has been a work horse and I have had very little problems. I don't want it to die on me but a newer printer would be cool also.
    - chrisjj 2y ago
      All fine... until it gets hacked.
patrick451 2y ago
What load of horseshit. 1. Nobody auto updates my linux machines. They have no malware. 2. It's my job to change the oil in my car. When Ford starts sending a tech to my house to tamper with my machines "because they need maintenance" will be the day I am no longer a Ford customer.
- mango7283 2y ago
  Carelessly handled Linux machines* can and do get infected by malware or compromised for data exfile, don't be obtuse. *Let's not pretend this never happens
  - cromka 2y ago
    Not to mention CVE mitigation.
- voltagex_ 2y ago
  Those Linux systems that aren't getting updates must be the ones sending Mirai to my Linux systems, which are getting updates (and also Mirai, although it won't run because it's the wrong architecture). No malware? Only if you have your head in the sand.
  - NegativeK 2y ago
    I assume that comment was saying that they handle the update process and that their machines don't have any malware on them. I ignored it because it was somewhat abusive and is missing the problem that automatic updates are trying to solve: that most people, but not all, don't do updates.
- _kb 2y ago
  The irony of this comment is almost perfected by the fact Ford were one of the leading companies in bringing ECU's (one of the myriad of computer systems essential to modern vehicles that can and do receive regular updates) to market in checks notes 1975. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EEC

Drygord 2y ago

This is for critical infrastructure though. You AT LEAST test it out first on some machines

alexanderdmitri 2y ago

I feel like this is the fake reason given to try to hide the obvious reason: automatic updates are a power move that allows companies to retain control of products they've sold.

exolymph 2y ago
no reason why both can't be true — the security is overall better, and companies are happy to invest in advancing this paradigm because it gives them more control
- alexanderdmitri 2y ago
  incentive can and does undermine the stated goal. what if the government decided to take control of everyone's investment portfolio to prevent the market doing bad things? or an airplane manufacturer gets takes control of its own safety certification process because obviously its in their best interest that their planes are safe? imposed curfew, everyone has to be inside their homes while its dark outside because most violent crimes occur at night?
NegativeK 2y ago
It's not fake reason; it's a very real solution to a very real problem. Of course companies are going to abuse it for grotesque profit motive, but that doesn't make their necessity a lie.
- josephg 2y ago
  Yep. And even aside from security, its a nightmare needing to maintain multiple versions of a product. "Oh, our software is crashing? What version do you have? Oh, 4.5. Well, update 4.7 from 2 years ago may fix your problem, but we've also released major versions 5 and 6 since then - no, I'm not trying to upsell you ma'am. We'll pull up the code from that version and see if we can figure out the problem." Having evergreen software that just keeps itself up to date is marvellous. The Google Docs team only needs to care about the current version of their software. There are no documents saved with an old version. There's no need to backport fixes to old versions, and no QA teams that need to test backported security updates on 10 year old hardware. Its just a shame about, y'know, the aptly named crowdstrike.
  - chrisjj 2y ago
    > The Google Docs team only needs to care about the current version of their software. There are no documents saved with an old version. There sure are. I have dozens saved years ago.
    - josephg 2y ago
      Fine. But Google can mass-migrate all of them to a new format any time they want. They don’t have the situation you used to have with Word, where you needed to remember to Save As Word 2001 format or whatever so you could open the file on another computer. (And if you forgot, the file was unreadable). It was a huge pain.
      - chrisjj 2y ago
        Yes it is better than the Word situation, but no it isn't not caring. There do exist old format docs and Google does have to care - to make that migration.
        josephg 2y ago
        Yes, they have to migrate once. But they don’t need to maintain 8 different versions of Word going back a decade, make sure all security patches get back ported (without breaking anything along the way), and make all of them are in some way cross compatible despite having differing feature sets. If google makes a new storage format they have to migrate old Google docs. But that’s a once off thing. When migrations happen, documents are only ever moved from old file formats to new file formats. With word, I need to be able to open an old document with the new version of word, make changes then re-save it so it’s compatible with the old version of word again. Then edit it on an old version of word and go back and forth. I’m sure the Google engineers are very busy. But by making Docs be evergreen software, they have a much easier problem to solve when it comes to this stuff. Nobody uses the version of Google docs from 6 months ago. You can’t. And that simplifies a lot of things.

cpill 2y ago

yeah, you don't want day to day security (a) changing daily (b) at the kennel level

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

That may apply to things that need to be online, but... a lathe?

krashidov 2y ago
wouldn't the lathe need to be online to get the OTA update from Crowdstrike?
fragmede 2y ago
how much lathe-ing have you done recently? did you load files onto your CNC lathe with an SD card, and thus there is a computer, which needs updates, or are you thinking of a lathe that is a motor and a rubber band, and nothing else, from, like, high school woodshop?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 14 2y ago
  I bought a 3d printer years ago then let it sit collecting dust for like 2 or more years because I was intimidated by it. Finally started using it and was blown away how useful it has been to me. Then a long time later realized holy shit there are updates and upgrades one can easily do. I can add a camera and control everything and monitor everything from any online connected device. I always hated pulling out the sd card and bringing it to my computer and copying it over and back to the printer and so on. Being online makes things so much easier and faster. I have been rocking my basic printer for a few years now and have not paid much attention to the scene and then started seeing these multi color prints holy shit am I slow and behind the times. The newer printers are pretty rad but I will give props to my Anycubic Mega it has been a work horse and I have had very little problems. I don't want it to die on me but a newer printer would be cool also.
  - chrisjj 2y ago
    All fine... until it gets hacked.

patrick451 2y ago

What load of horseshit. 1. Nobody auto updates my linux machines. They have no malware. 2. It's my job to change the oil in my car. When Ford starts sending a tech to my house to tamper with my machines "because they need maintenance" will be the day I am no longer a Ford customer.

mango7283 2y ago
Carelessly handled Linux machines* can and do get infected by malware or compromised for data exfile, don't be obtuse. *Let's not pretend this never happens
- cromka 2y ago
  Not to mention CVE mitigation.
voltagex_ 2y ago
Those Linux systems that aren't getting updates must be the ones sending Mirai to my Linux systems, which are getting updates (and also Mirai, although it won't run because it's the wrong architecture). No malware? Only if you have your head in the sand.
- NegativeK 2y ago
  I assume that comment was saying that they handle the update process and that their machines don't have any malware on them. I ignored it because it was somewhat abusive and is missing the problem that automatic updates are trying to solve: that most people, but not all, don't do updates.
_kb 2y ago
The irony of this comment is almost perfected by the fact Ford were one of the leading companies in bringing ECU's (one of the myriad of computer systems essential to modern vehicles that can and do receive regular updates) to market in checks notes 1975. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EEC