7 ms·

They're probably deployed to a virtualized system to easy with maintenance and upkeep. Updates are partially necessary to ensure you don't end up completely un

They're probably deployed to a virtualized system to easy with maintenance and upkeep. Updates are partially necessary to ensure you don't end up completely unsupported in the future. It's been a long time, but I worked IT for an auto supplier. Literally nothing was worse than some old computer crapping out with an old version of Windows and a proprietary driver. Mind you, these weren't mission critical systems, but they did disrupt people's workflows while we were fixing the systems. Think, things like digital measurements or barcode scanners. Everything can be easily done by hand but it's a massive pain. Most of these systems end up migrated to a local data center than deployed via a thin client. Far easier to maintain and fix than some box that's been sitting in the corner of a shop collecting dust for 15 years.

mulmen 2y ago
Ok but it’s a LIFT. How is Windows even involved? Is it part of the controls?
- notimetorelax 2y ago
  Probably for things like this - https://www.kone.co.uk/new-buildings/advanced-people-flow-solutions/monitoring-solutions/ https://www.kone.co.uk/new-buildings/advanced-people-flow-so... There’s a lot of value on Internet of Things everything, but comes with own risks.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    I'm having a hard time picturing a multi-story diesel repair shop. Maybe a few floors in a dense area but not so high that a lack of elevators would be show stopping. So I interpret "lift" as the machinery used to raise equipment off the ground for maintenance.
    - cyberax 2y ago
      Several elevator controllers automatically switch to the safe mode if they detect a fire or security alarm (which apparently is also happening).
- fragmede 2y ago
  how many lifts, and how many floors, with how many people are you imagining? Yes, there's a dumb simple case where there's no need for a computer with an OS, but after the umpteenth car with umpteen floors, when would you put in a computer? and then there's authentication. how do you want key cards which say who's allowed to use the lift to work without some sort of database which implies some sort of computer with an operating system?
  - mulmen 2y ago
    It's a diesel repair shop, not an office building. I'm interpreting "lift" as a device for lifting a vehicle off the ground, not an elevator for getting people to the 12th floor.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  The most basic example is duty cycle monitoring and trouble shooting. You can also do things like digital lock-outs on lifts that need maintenance. While the lift might not need a dedicated computer, they might be used in an integrated environment. You kick off the alignment or a calibration procedure from the same place that you operate the lift.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  Example of patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6983196B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US6983196B2/en So for maintenance and fault indications. Probably saves some time from someone digging up manuals for checking error codes from where ever they maybe placed or not. Also could display things like height and weight.
- numpad0 2y ago
  Real problem is not that it's just a damn lift and shouldn't need full Windows. It's that something as theoretically solved and done problem as an operating system is not practically so. An Internet of Lift can be done with <32MB of RAM and <500MHz single core CPU. Instead they(for whoever they) put a GLaDOS-class supercomputer for it. That's the absurdity.
  - rjmunro 2y ago
    An Internet of Lift can be done with <32KB of RAM and <500KHz single core CPU.
- vachina 2y ago
  You’d be surprised at how entrenched Windows is in the machine automation industry. There are entire control systems algo implemented and run in realtime Windows, vendors like Beckhoff and ACS only have Windows build for their control software which developers extend and build on top with Visual Studio.
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    Siemens is also very much in on this. Up to about the 90s most of these vendors were running stuff on proprietary software stacks running on proprietary hardware networked using proprietary networks and protocols (an example for a fully proprietary stack like this would be Teleperm). Then in the 90s everyone left their proprietary systems behind and moved to Windows NT. All of these applications are truly "Windows-native" in the sense that their architecture is directly built on all the Windows components. Pretty much impossible to port, I'd wager.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    Absolutely correct, I've seen muli-axis machine tools that couldn't even be started let alone get running properly if Windows wouldn't start. Incidentally, on more than one occasion I've not been able to use one of the nearby automatic tellers because of a Windows crash.
- Arrath 2y ago
  Its easier and cheaper (and a lil safer) to run wires to the up\down control lever and have those actuate a valve somewhere, than it is to run hydraulic hoses to a lever like in lifts of old, for example. That said it could also be run by whatever the equivalent of "PLC on an 8bit Microcontroller" is, and not some full embedded Windows system with live online virus protection so yeah, what the hell.
- rramadass 2y ago
  Perhaps "Windows Embedded" is involved somewhere in the control loop, it is a huge industry but not that well-known to the public; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_Industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_Industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_IoT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_IoT
  - tibbydudeza 2y ago
    We do ATM's - it runs on Windows IOT - before that it was OS/2.
    - rramadass 2y ago
      Any info on whether this Crowdstrike Falcon crap is used here?
      - tibbydudeza 2y ago
        Fortunately for us not at all although we use it on our desktops - my work laptop had a BSOD on Friday morning, but it recovered.
        rramadass 2y ago
        According to reports the ATMs of some banks also showed the BSOD which surprised me; i wouldn't have thought such "embedded" devices needed any type of "third-party online updates".
        tibbydudeza 2y ago
        Security for a device that can issue cash is kind of important.

mulmen 2y ago

Ok but it’s a LIFT. How is Windows even involved? Is it part of the controls?

notimetorelax 2y ago
Probably for things like this - https://www.kone.co.uk/new-buildings/advanced-people-flow-solutions/monitoring-solutions/ https://www.kone.co.uk/new-buildings/advanced-people-flow-so... There’s a lot of value on Internet of Things everything, but comes with own risks.
- mulmen 2y ago
  I'm having a hard time picturing a multi-story diesel repair shop. Maybe a few floors in a dense area but not so high that a lack of elevators would be show stopping. So I interpret "lift" as the machinery used to raise equipment off the ground for maintenance.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    Several elevator controllers automatically switch to the safe mode if they detect a fire or security alarm (which apparently is also happening).
fragmede 2y ago
how many lifts, and how many floors, with how many people are you imagining? Yes, there's a dumb simple case where there's no need for a computer with an OS, but after the umpteenth car with umpteen floors, when would you put in a computer? and then there's authentication. how do you want key cards which say who's allowed to use the lift to work without some sort of database which implies some sort of computer with an operating system?
- mulmen 2y ago
  It's a diesel repair shop, not an office building. I'm interpreting "lift" as a device for lifting a vehicle off the ground, not an elevator for getting people to the 12th floor.
SkyPuncher 2y ago
The most basic example is duty cycle monitoring and trouble shooting. You can also do things like digital lock-outs on lifts that need maintenance. While the lift might not need a dedicated computer, they might be used in an integrated environment. You kick off the alignment or a calibration procedure from the same place that you operate the lift.
Ekaros 2y ago
Example of patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6983196B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US6983196B2/en So for maintenance and fault indications. Probably saves some time from someone digging up manuals for checking error codes from where ever they maybe placed or not. Also could display things like height and weight.
numpad0 2y ago
Real problem is not that it's just a damn lift and shouldn't need full Windows. It's that something as theoretically solved and done problem as an operating system is not practically so. An Internet of Lift can be done with <32MB of RAM and <500MHz single core CPU. Instead they(for whoever they) put a GLaDOS-class supercomputer for it. That's the absurdity.
- rjmunro 2y ago
  An Internet of Lift can be done with <32KB of RAM and <500KHz single core CPU.
vachina 2y ago
You’d be surprised at how entrenched Windows is in the machine automation industry. There are entire control systems algo implemented and run in realtime Windows, vendors like Beckhoff and ACS only have Windows build for their control software which developers extend and build on top with Visual Studio.
- formerly_proven 2y ago
  Siemens is also very much in on this. Up to about the 90s most of these vendors were running stuff on proprietary software stacks running on proprietary hardware networked using proprietary networks and protocols (an example for a fully proprietary stack like this would be Teleperm). Then in the 90s everyone left their proprietary systems behind and moved to Windows NT. All of these applications are truly "Windows-native" in the sense that their architecture is directly built on all the Windows components. Pretty much impossible to port, I'd wager.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  Absolutely correct, I've seen muli-axis machine tools that couldn't even be started let alone get running properly if Windows wouldn't start. Incidentally, on more than one occasion I've not been able to use one of the nearby automatic tellers because of a Windows crash.
Arrath 2y ago
Its easier and cheaper (and a lil safer) to run wires to the up\down control lever and have those actuate a valve somewhere, than it is to run hydraulic hoses to a lever like in lifts of old, for example. That said it could also be run by whatever the equivalent of "PLC on an 8bit Microcontroller" is, and not some full embedded Windows system with live online virus protection so yeah, what the hell.
rramadass 2y ago
Perhaps "Windows Embedded" is involved somewhere in the control loop, it is a huge industry but not that well-known to the public; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_Industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_Industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_IoT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_IoT
- tibbydudeza 2y ago
  We do ATM's - it runs on Windows IOT - before that it was OS/2.
  - rramadass 2y ago
    Any info on whether this Crowdstrike Falcon crap is used here?
    - tibbydudeza 2y ago
      Fortunately for us not at all although we use it on our desktops - my work laptop had a BSOD on Friday morning, but it recovered.
      - rramadass 2y ago
        According to reports the ATMs of some banks also showed the BSOD which surprised me; i wouldn't have thought such "embedded" devices needed any type of "third-party online updates".
        tibbydudeza 2y ago
        Security for a device that can issue cash is kind of important.