5 ms·

Why do lathes , cranes and laser alignment systems need a new copy of windows?

by thedrbrian 2y ago

Kirth 2y ago
and why do they run spyware?
- recursive 2y ago
  Probably because some fraction of lift manufacturer's customer base has a compliance checklist requiring it.
olyjohn 2y ago
Lathes probably have PCs connected to them to control them, and do CNC stuff (he did say the controllers). Laser alignment machines all have PCs connected to them these days. The cranes and lifts though... I've never heard of them being networked or controlled by a computer. Usually it's a couple buttons connected to the motors and that's it. But maybe they have some monitoring systems in them?
- p_l 2y ago
  Off then top of my head, based on limited experience in industrial automation: - maintenance monitoring data shipping to centralised locations - computer based HMI system - there might be good old manual control but it might require unreasonable amounts of extra work per work order - Centralised control system - instead of using panel specific to lift, you might be controlling bunch of tools from common panel - integration with other tools, starting from things as simple as pulling up manufacturers' service manual to check for details to doing things like automatically raising the lift to position appropriate for work order involving other (possibly also automated) tools with adjustments based on the vehicle you're lifting There could be more.
Prickle 2y ago
Very likely they use a manufacturing execution system like Dassault's DELMIA or Siemens MES. These systems are intended to allow local control of a factory, or cloud based global control of manufacturing. They can connect to individual PLC(Programmable Logic Controller) which handles the actual equipment. They connect to a LAN network, or to the internet. So they naturally need some form of security. They could use Windows Server, Redhat Linux, etc. but they need some form of security. Which is how controller would be affected. Usually you can just set them to manual though...
NegativeK 2y ago
CNC machine tools can track use, maintenance, etc via the network. You can also push programs to them for your parts. The need a new copy of Windows because running an old copy on a network is a worse idea.
- bschwindHN 2y ago
  This blows my mind because none of this requires windows, or a desktop OS at all.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    Remember that CNC is programming environment. Now how do actually see what program is loaded? Or where is the execution at the moment? For anything beyond few lines of text on dotmatrix screen actual OS starts to be come desirable. And all things considered, Windows is not that bad option. Anything else would also have issues. And really what is your other option some outdated, unmaintained Android? Does your hardware vendor offer long term support for Linux? Windows actually offers extremely good long term support quite often.
    - cjbillington 2y ago
      > Does your hardware vendor offer long term support for Linux? This seems muddled. If the CNC manufacturer puts Linux on an embedded device to operate the CNC, they're the hardware manufacturer and it's up to them to pick a chip that's likely to work with future Linuxes if they want to be able to update it in the future. Are you asking if the chip manufacturer offers long-term-support for Linux? It's usually the other way around, whether Linux will support the chip. And the answer, generally, is "yes, Linux works on your chip. Oh you're going to use another chip? yes, Linux works on that too". This is not really something to worry about. Unless you're making very strange, esoteric choices, Linux runs on everything. But that still seems muddled. Long-term support? How long are we talking? Putting an old Linux kernel on an embedded device and just never updating it once it's in the field is totally viable. The Linux kernel itself is extremely backwards compatible, and it's often irrelevant which version you're using in an embedded device. The "firmware upgrades" they're likely to want to do would be in the userspace code anyhow - whatever code is showing data on a display or running a web server you can upload files to or however it works. Any kernel made in the last decade is going to be just fine. We're not talking about installing Ubuntu and worrying about unsolicited Snap updates. Embedded stuff like this needs a kernel with drivers that can talk to required peripherals (often over protocols that haven't changed in decades), and that can kick off userspace code to provide a UI either on a screen or a web interface. It's just not that demanding. As such, people get away with putting FreeRTOS on a microcontroller, and that can show a GUI on a screen or a web interface too, you often don't need a "full" OS at all. A full OS can be a liability, since it's difficult to get real-time behaviour which presumably matters for something like a CNC. You either run a real-time OS, or a regular OS (from which the GUI stuff is easier) which offloads work to additional microcontrollers that do the real-time stuff. I did not expect Windows to be running on CNCs. I didn't expect it to be running on supermarket checkouts. The existence of this entire class of things pointlessly running self-updating, internet-connected Windows confuses me. I can only assume that there are industries where people think "computer equals Windows" and there just isn't the experience present, for whatever reason, to know that whacking a random Linux kernel on an embedded computer and calling it a day is way easier than whatever hoops you have to jump through to make a desktop OS, let alone Windows, work sensibly in that environment.

Why do lathes , cranes and laser alignment systems need a new copy of windows?

Kirth 2y ago

and why do they run spyware?

recursive 2y ago
Probably because some fraction of lift manufacturer's customer base has a compliance checklist requiring it.

olyjohn 2y ago

Lathes probably have PCs connected to them to control them, and do CNC stuff (he did say the controllers). Laser alignment machines all have PCs connected to them these days. The cranes and lifts though... I've never heard of them being networked or controlled by a computer. Usually it's a couple buttons connected to the motors and that's it. But maybe they have some monitoring systems in them?

p_l 2y ago
Off then top of my head, based on limited experience in industrial automation: - maintenance monitoring data shipping to centralised locations - computer based HMI system - there might be good old manual control but it might require unreasonable amounts of extra work per work order - Centralised control system - instead of using panel specific to lift, you might be controlling bunch of tools from common panel - integration with other tools, starting from things as simple as pulling up manufacturers' service manual to check for details to doing things like automatically raising the lift to position appropriate for work order involving other (possibly also automated) tools with adjustments based on the vehicle you're lifting There could be more.

Prickle 2y ago

Very likely they use a manufacturing execution system like Dassault's DELMIA or Siemens MES. These systems are intended to allow local control of a factory, or cloud based global control of manufacturing. They can connect to individual PLC(Programmable Logic Controller) which handles the actual equipment. They connect to a LAN network, or to the internet. So they naturally need some form of security. They could use Windows Server, Redhat Linux, etc. but they need some form of security. Which is how controller would be affected. Usually you can just set them to manual though...

NegativeK 2y ago

CNC machine tools can track use, maintenance, etc via the network. You can also push programs to them for your parts. The need a new copy of Windows because running an old copy on a network is a worse idea.

bschwindHN 2y ago
This blows my mind because none of this requires windows, or a desktop OS at all.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  Remember that CNC is programming environment. Now how do actually see what program is loaded? Or where is the execution at the moment? For anything beyond few lines of text on dotmatrix screen actual OS starts to be come desirable. And all things considered, Windows is not that bad option. Anything else would also have issues. And really what is your other option some outdated, unmaintained Android? Does your hardware vendor offer long term support for Linux? Windows actually offers extremely good long term support quite often.
  - cjbillington 2y ago
    > Does your hardware vendor offer long term support for Linux? This seems muddled. If the CNC manufacturer puts Linux on an embedded device to operate the CNC, they're the hardware manufacturer and it's up to them to pick a chip that's likely to work with future Linuxes if they want to be able to update it in the future. Are you asking if the chip manufacturer offers long-term-support for Linux? It's usually the other way around, whether Linux will support the chip. And the answer, generally, is "yes, Linux works on your chip. Oh you're going to use another chip? yes, Linux works on that too". This is not really something to worry about. Unless you're making very strange, esoteric choices, Linux runs on everything. But that still seems muddled. Long-term support? How long are we talking? Putting an old Linux kernel on an embedded device and just never updating it once it's in the field is totally viable. The Linux kernel itself is extremely backwards compatible, and it's often irrelevant which version you're using in an embedded device. The "firmware upgrades" they're likely to want to do would be in the userspace code anyhow - whatever code is showing data on a display or running a web server you can upload files to or however it works. Any kernel made in the last decade is going to be just fine. We're not talking about installing Ubuntu and worrying about unsolicited Snap updates. Embedded stuff like this needs a kernel with drivers that can talk to required peripherals (often over protocols that haven't changed in decades), and that can kick off userspace code to provide a UI either on a screen or a web interface. It's just not that demanding. As such, people get away with putting FreeRTOS on a microcontroller, and that can show a GUI on a screen or a web interface too, you often don't need a "full" OS at all. A full OS can be a liability, since it's difficult to get real-time behaviour which presumably matters for something like a CNC. You either run a real-time OS, or a regular OS (from which the GUI stuff is easier) which offloads work to additional microcontrollers that do the real-time stuff. I did not expect Windows to be running on CNCs. I didn't expect it to be running on supermarket checkouts. The existence of this entire class of things pointlessly running self-updating, internet-connected Windows confuses me. I can only assume that there are industries where people think "computer equals Windows" and there just isn't the experience present, for whatever reason, to know that whacking a random Linux kernel on an embedded computer and calling it a day is way easier than whatever hoops you have to jump through to make a desktop OS, let alone Windows, work sensibly in that environment.