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I’m curious which direction the etymology goes. Often what starts out as an innocuous descriptive word gets negatively charged over time, for example “retard”.

I’m curious which direction the etymology goes. Often what starts out as an innocuous descriptive word gets negatively charged over time, for example “retard”. Were the plants really named after a word for nonbelievers? Or is there a common root for both. For example if it started as a regional term it could have evolved into a slur. I’m not opposed to the change, I just find it interesting/amusing from a cultural perspective if the euphemism treadmill is now extending to plants.

pvaldes 2y ago
South Park nailed it. Once you open this door all is an endless road of somebody, somewhere, feeling outraged by something, and demanding to be changed. In the end the goal seems to destroy one of the few things that we still agreed to do collectively as human species. Using an universal way to name the creatures that live in the planet. The same species will have different Scientific names for suiting the preferences of Chinese, USA, Brazilians or Russians. After all, it isn't "racist" not being able to use the Chinese alphabet on scientific names? Scientists will be automatically tagged as belonging to ideology or political party by the names that they will choose to enforce. Countries with republics will try to wipe names honoring the kings of monarchies that patronage the scientific expeditions. They don't even understand, or even worse don't care, about the precedent that they are setting.
- erulabs 2y ago
  I don’t disagree, but a counter point is that no one has ever agreed on everything - and colloquial names for species already exist — and that language drifts to and fro like a fog. Statis in connotation or denotation sounds somehow totalitarian to me. Even outside of colloquial speech and in the world of science, everything should be in flux, shouldn’t it? The idea that the whole world would use the same language sounds much worse than the opposite: that different people would act differently.
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    > no one has ever agreed on everything Every biologist since 1700 agreed to use the Taxonomic rules (or tried, and failed, to improve the system). This collective project is one of our main success as species. Or maybe we should say "it was", that building has eroded a lot in the last 100 years. That congress is basically the mess what happens where all scientists had been replaced by politicians.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Do you realize this isn't a precedent being set now though? Species names change all the time, for a variety of reasons only some of them strictly scientific or out of actual taxonomic necessity. The hypotheticals you're alarmed at have already happened, in some cases over a century ago.
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    Species names change all the time for --Scientific-- reasons. That reflects that our knowledge about the species has improved. This move is totally unrelated with science, is bipartisan (not all scientists agree that the local toponym caffra is a racist word) and just adds a lot of confusion without improving our knowledge about the species.
- krapp 2y ago
  Lol. Of all the stupid internet hills to die on, why did you decide to pick "racist plant names?"
- graemep 2y ago
  > The same species will have different Scientific names for suiting the preferences of Chinese, USA, Brazilians or Russians Generally the sensitivities of Americans take precedence. I can think of many examples in many fields (e.g. the word "master" because of its strongest association in the US is with slavery, which is not true everywhere).
- Buttons840 2y ago
  Languages force us to be aware of certain concepts. English forces us to always be aware of tense (past, present, future) and the gender of people. Some languages require you to be aware of the gender of inanimate objects. A language actually could evolve to force people to be aware of political affiliation, and it wouldn't even be that weird, although it would be divisive.
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    Scientific language is not like Portuguese or English. Is a language in the same way as math or music are languages. Is a method universal to name things unequivocally with a fixed set of rules --and-- to honor the people that sweated blood and tears to discover this organisms for everyone of us to enjoy them. Introducing politics in scientific language, is as obnoxious as claiming that is unacceptable that a score contains more white notes than black notes.

pvaldes 2y ago

South Park nailed it. Once you open this door all is an endless road of somebody, somewhere, feeling outraged by something, and demanding to be changed. In the end the goal seems to destroy one of the few things that we still agreed to do collectively as human species. Using an universal way to name the creatures that live in the planet. The same species will have different Scientific names for suiting the preferences of Chinese, USA, Brazilians or Russians. After all, it isn't "racist" not being able to use the Chinese alphabet on scientific names? Scientists will be automatically tagged as belonging to ideology or political party by the names that they will choose to enforce. Countries with republics will try to wipe names honoring the kings of monarchies that patronage the scientific expeditions. They don't even understand, or even worse don't care, about the precedent that they are setting.

erulabs 2y ago
I don’t disagree, but a counter point is that no one has ever agreed on everything - and colloquial names for species already exist — and that language drifts to and fro like a fog. Statis in connotation or denotation sounds somehow totalitarian to me. Even outside of colloquial speech and in the world of science, everything should be in flux, shouldn’t it? The idea that the whole world would use the same language sounds much worse than the opposite: that different people would act differently.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  > no one has ever agreed on everything Every biologist since 1700 agreed to use the Taxonomic rules (or tried, and failed, to improve the system). This collective project is one of our main success as species. Or maybe we should say "it was", that building has eroded a lot in the last 100 years. That congress is basically the mess what happens where all scientists had been replaced by politicians.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
Do you realize this isn't a precedent being set now though? Species names change all the time, for a variety of reasons only some of them strictly scientific or out of actual taxonomic necessity. The hypotheticals you're alarmed at have already happened, in some cases over a century ago.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  Species names change all the time for --Scientific-- reasons. That reflects that our knowledge about the species has improved. This move is totally unrelated with science, is bipartisan (not all scientists agree that the local toponym caffra is a racist word) and just adds a lot of confusion without improving our knowledge about the species.
krapp 2y ago
Lol. Of all the stupid internet hills to die on, why did you decide to pick "racist plant names?"
graemep 2y ago
> The same species will have different Scientific names for suiting the preferences of Chinese, USA, Brazilians or Russians Generally the sensitivities of Americans take precedence. I can think of many examples in many fields (e.g. the word "master" because of its strongest association in the US is with slavery, which is not true everywhere).
Buttons840 2y ago
Languages force us to be aware of certain concepts. English forces us to always be aware of tense (past, present, future) and the gender of people. Some languages require you to be aware of the gender of inanimate objects. A language actually could evolve to force people to be aware of political affiliation, and it wouldn't even be that weird, although it would be divisive.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  Scientific language is not like Portuguese or English. Is a language in the same way as math or music are languages. Is a method universal to name things unequivocally with a fixed set of rules --and-- to honor the people that sweated blood and tears to discover this organisms for everyone of us to enjoy them. Introducing politics in scientific language, is as obnoxious as claiming that is unacceptable that a score contains more white notes than black notes.