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I think Moldovans are doing much better that Native Americans in the US. "have their own versions of the atrocities in Congo" I think you need to read on the

I think Moldovans are doing much better that Native Americans in the US. "have their own versions of the atrocities in Congo" I think you need to read on the history of Congo. "except with Russian/Soviets at the privileged end" This is where you are wrong. Russians suffered from the crimes of bolshevik's/Stalin's regime just as much.

alxlaz 2y ago
Mate, you realise you're talking to someone who's lost family members to, and has grown among victims of, trail of tears, state-organised atrocities (from forced labour to hostage-taking) that totally didn't happen, and reservations that we totally didn't have, right? You think those things didn't happen in the former Soviet space? Buy a plane ticket, I'll introduce you to a few hundred survivors who experienced them first-hand so that you can tell them they just imagined it. Colonial Europe had no shortage of mad dictators that European population suffered at the hands of. Colonising other parts of the world while also hurting one's own people are not mutually incompatible.
- protomolecule 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - alxlaz 2y ago
    > The USSR proclaimed friendship of peoples My apologies, I thought this was a serious discussion. By that standard, European colonization never happened, either. All European colonial powers proclaimed things like a civilizing mission. Several of them had "indigenous" programs, too. > Had Stalin who collectively punished ethnicities which collaborated with Nazi more than others. Oh really. Remember that time when, in formal collaboration with Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union invaded Poland, and later annexed parts of then-neutral Romania, after which they promptly began mass repressions against Romanian-speaking population? Does that count towards the "friendship of peoples", or, as the Radio Yerevan joke went, only towards friendship with certain Aryan peoples? Not to mention that this entire "Nazi collaboration" narrative is a fictitious distinction in and of itself. The Soviet Union literally collaborated with Nazi Germany at the highest government level before their alliance broke down and ended up in war.
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      It is. Apologies are not accepted. Can you give me an example where an ethnicity was declared inferior in the USSR? I doubt you can. In the Europe and in the US the theories of the superiority of white people were abound and used to justify slave trade and exploitation. "By that standard, European colonization never happened, either." What standard exactly? Ideology is important, but it wasn't the main point of my argument. Soviet republics got industrialized thanks to what you call 'Soviet colonization', their population got rid of illiteracy at the same time as Russians. You can't say that about real colonies of Europe. "Oh really." Please don't make major edits to your comments which make replies seem inadequate or incomplete. Funny that you have no objection to collective punishment which is enough to make it a crime. And your examples are irrelevant because they describe relations between different states, not the unequal treatment of different ethnicites by the same government. "later annexed parts of then-neutral Romania" You mean the parts that were grabbed by Romania 20 years earlier? [0] "The Soviet Union literally collaborated with Nazi Germany at the highest government level before their alliance broke down and ended up in war." The USSR was supporting anti-fascist side in the Spanish civil war and was trying to arrange anti-Nazi treaty with the Britain and France, only after the infamous Munich agreement, when the West green-lighted dismemberment of Czechoslovakia by Germany, Poland and Hungary, the USSR signed the non-aggression pact with Germany. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovina#Kingdom_of_Romania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovina#Kingdom_of_Romania
      - alxlaz 2y ago
        > It is. It clearly isn't, because so far you've moved the goalposts of colonization several times, including claiming that it couldn't have happened because Soviet authorities said it didn't. But, sure, what's another goalpopst: sure I can, and you don't have to take my word for it, it's literally the Soviet state apparatus that admitted to it. Law N 1107-I of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic on the rehabilitation of the repressed people recognizes that there were several peoples "against whom a policy of slander and genocide was pursued at the State level on the grounds of national or other affiliation, accompanied by their forced relocation, the abolition of national and State entities, the redrawing of national and territorial boundaries, the establishment of a regime of terror and violence in places of special settlement" (Art. 2). Several of the peoples on the list were, ironically, indigenous peoples that were supposedly protected by the Soviet Union's policy of indigenization, like the kalmyks. The Soviet Union never developed a legal theory of racial superiority because it had a theory of political superiority from the very beginning, which it could conveniently apply along ethnic lines. Edit: oh really now, who's sneak-editing their comments? (Besides, you don't need me editing my comments post-factum to make your own posts seem incomplete: most of your quotes end halfway through the phrase anyway) > Funny that you have no objection to collective punishment which is enough to make it a crime. Of course I do. That's the whole thing you're skirting around. > You mean the parts that were grabbed by Romania 20 years earlier? [0] Yes, the one that had been grabbed by Russia 100 years before that, and the other one, which it had "grabbed" from the other European empire and had never been incorporated in the Russian empire or the USSR before. Funny how when someone else does it, it's "grabbing", but when the Soviet Union did it, it's the friendship of peoples. > the USSR signed the non-aggression pact with Germany. ...uh-huh, which included, you know, that part about the partitioning of Poland, the Baltics (which was eventually walked back on through another pact), and the non-interference of Germany in the occupation of Bassarabia and Northern Bukovina. And was promptly executed through the joint invasion of Poland.

alxlaz 2y ago

Mate, you realise you're talking to someone who's lost family members to, and has grown among victims of, trail of tears, state-organised atrocities (from forced labour to hostage-taking) that totally didn't happen, and reservations that we totally didn't have, right? You think those things didn't happen in the former Soviet space? Buy a plane ticket, I'll introduce you to a few hundred survivors who experienced them first-hand so that you can tell them they just imagined it. Colonial Europe had no shortage of mad dictators that European population suffered at the hands of. Colonising other parts of the world while also hurting one's own people are not mutually incompatible.

protomolecule 2y ago
[flagged]
- alxlaz 2y ago
  > The USSR proclaimed friendship of peoples My apologies, I thought this was a serious discussion. By that standard, European colonization never happened, either. All European colonial powers proclaimed things like a civilizing mission. Several of them had "indigenous" programs, too. > Had Stalin who collectively punished ethnicities which collaborated with Nazi more than others. Oh really. Remember that time when, in formal collaboration with Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union invaded Poland, and later annexed parts of then-neutral Romania, after which they promptly began mass repressions against Romanian-speaking population? Does that count towards the "friendship of peoples", or, as the Radio Yerevan joke went, only towards friendship with certain Aryan peoples? Not to mention that this entire "Nazi collaboration" narrative is a fictitious distinction in and of itself. The Soviet Union literally collaborated with Nazi Germany at the highest government level before their alliance broke down and ended up in war.
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    It is. Apologies are not accepted. Can you give me an example where an ethnicity was declared inferior in the USSR? I doubt you can. In the Europe and in the US the theories of the superiority of white people were abound and used to justify slave trade and exploitation. "By that standard, European colonization never happened, either." What standard exactly? Ideology is important, but it wasn't the main point of my argument. Soviet republics got industrialized thanks to what you call 'Soviet colonization', their population got rid of illiteracy at the same time as Russians. You can't say that about real colonies of Europe. "Oh really." Please don't make major edits to your comments which make replies seem inadequate or incomplete. Funny that you have no objection to collective punishment which is enough to make it a crime. And your examples are irrelevant because they describe relations between different states, not the unequal treatment of different ethnicites by the same government. "later annexed parts of then-neutral Romania" You mean the parts that were grabbed by Romania 20 years earlier? [0] "The Soviet Union literally collaborated with Nazi Germany at the highest government level before their alliance broke down and ended up in war." The USSR was supporting anti-fascist side in the Spanish civil war and was trying to arrange anti-Nazi treaty with the Britain and France, only after the infamous Munich agreement, when the West green-lighted dismemberment of Czechoslovakia by Germany, Poland and Hungary, the USSR signed the non-aggression pact with Germany. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovina#Kingdom_of_Romania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovina#Kingdom_of_Romania
    - alxlaz 2y ago
      > It is. It clearly isn't, because so far you've moved the goalposts of colonization several times, including claiming that it couldn't have happened because Soviet authorities said it didn't. But, sure, what's another goalpopst: sure I can, and you don't have to take my word for it, it's literally the Soviet state apparatus that admitted to it. Law N 1107-I of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic on the rehabilitation of the repressed people recognizes that there were several peoples "against whom a policy of slander and genocide was pursued at the State level on the grounds of national or other affiliation, accompanied by their forced relocation, the abolition of national and State entities, the redrawing of national and territorial boundaries, the establishment of a regime of terror and violence in places of special settlement" (Art. 2). Several of the peoples on the list were, ironically, indigenous peoples that were supposedly protected by the Soviet Union's policy of indigenization, like the kalmyks. The Soviet Union never developed a legal theory of racial superiority because it had a theory of political superiority from the very beginning, which it could conveniently apply along ethnic lines. Edit: oh really now, who's sneak-editing their comments? (Besides, you don't need me editing my comments post-factum to make your own posts seem incomplete: most of your quotes end halfway through the phrase anyway) > Funny that you have no objection to collective punishment which is enough to make it a crime. Of course I do. That's the whole thing you're skirting around. > You mean the parts that were grabbed by Romania 20 years earlier? [0] Yes, the one that had been grabbed by Russia 100 years before that, and the other one, which it had "grabbed" from the other European empire and had never been incorporated in the Russian empire or the USSR before. Funny how when someone else does it, it's "grabbing", but when the Soviet Union did it, it's the friendship of peoples. > the USSR signed the non-aggression pact with Germany. ...uh-huh, which included, you know, that part about the partitioning of Poland, the Baltics (which was eventually walked back on through another pact), and the non-interference of Germany in the occupation of Bassarabia and Northern Bukovina. And was promptly executed through the joint invasion of Poland.