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I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated, as I think that we all know what qualifies as an HR nightmare. Gender inequality is a problem that def

by fein 14y ago

I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated, as I think that we all know what qualifies as an HR nightmare. Gender inequality is a problem that definitely needs to be avoided, but (what seems to be) the core issue for this article seems to be a non issue. We don't really have any context for the Hooters-ish photo, so I can't make any concrete deductions, but it seems as though an all male startup team decided to go willingly, and most likely unanimously to the wild wings and boobs eatery. If they had female counterparts that felt as though they did not belong then there could be a problem. Again, we don't have much context. I can understand the sentiment regarding the "unprofessional" nature of the given photo, but I highly doubt that their employee outing is going to be the cause of burned bridges and lawsuits.

marquis 14y ago
>I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated It does. As long as professional companies allow outings to locations that marginalises/objectifies others it's a problem with respect and how it reflects on the industry.
hythloday 14y ago
"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" but you find that an all-male publicizing going to a "breasturant" for a team outing is a "non-issue"? Do you genuinely not see any contradiction in those viewpoints?
- fein 14y ago
  If the decision to go was unanimous then how is this a problem? They went to a restaurant that advertises the objectifying of women, with employees (of the eatery) that are totally OK with it as well. Now, if one of those employees decided to voice resistance to the idea and they carried on despite this, we would have a problem. I don't see a problem with the author's specific instance, nor would I have a problem with an all female/ voluntary crew heading out to man hooters and throwing it up all over the intertubes.
  - hythloday 14y ago
    It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Fewer organizations that welcome women mean a less attractive industry for women, which is the polar opposite of avoiding gender inequality. Pretty much any time you're discussing inequality, if you reach for "it would be OK if the situations were reversed", you are choosing to ignore the substance of the problem, which is that 99.9% of the time the situations are not reversed.
    - mindcrime 14y ago
      It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Is it really, though? If so, why? Men who enjoy going to Hooters are not necessarily crude, aggressive louts who treat women poorly. And a company that has lunch at Hooters is hardly a place where women are automatically unwelcome, or treated as inferior. In fact, I see very little connection her at all. As a man, I find that appreciating beautiful women and celebrating sexuality are completely orthogonal to my desire to treat women as respected peers and colleagues in the workplace and to treat women with respect based on factors other than their physical appearance.
      - hythloday 14y ago
        Even the post I replied to admitted that it would be a problem if there was a woman in the company who objected. If you assume that women are more likely to object to going there than men, and that men in the company enjoy going there, it's obvious that a woman would be less welcome to join the company than a man. I think you're seeking to interpret "unwelcome" as implying deliberate slights or cold shoulders, which isn't what I was getting at - I mean that the company culture would have to change more to accommodate a woman than a man, and that this would be obvious to the woman.
    - prodigal_erik 14y ago
      Unwelcome? I've never understood this. The stereotype is that attractive people got hired by being attractive (or maybe for putting out) rather than being competent, but I have trouble believing anyone has never met any coworkers who were both. I've had my share of crushes on sharp people I've worked with; it's my responsibility not to let it be an issue, and so I don't.
zopa 14y ago
You've got it backwards: this is the context. It probably wouldn't trigger a lawsuit on its own; it's the reason you'd lose that lawsuit, or have to settle on very unfavorable terms. Look at the cases the OP mentioned. Each one has a concrete injury (getting passed over for a promotion, etc.), plus evidence suggesting that gender discrimination was the reason for the injury. Now imagine that a well-qualified women applied for a job with this startup, and was passed over. Given the breastaurant photo, it would look very plausible that the applicant wasn't hired because the founders hire people they like, and they like guys they can see themselves hanging out with at places like this.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
prodigal_erik 14y ago
If your team has a documented history of this sort of thoughtcrime, any woman with a grudge and a lawyer can use that to fry you. Whatever you think of the ethics, it's blatantly self-destructive behavior within the US system of employment law.

by fein 14y ago

marquis 14y ago

>I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated It does. As long as professional companies allow outings to locations that marginalises/objectifies others it's a problem with respect and how it reflects on the industry.

hythloday 14y ago

"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" but you find that an all-male publicizing going to a "breasturant" for a team outing is a "non-issue"? Do you genuinely not see any contradiction in those viewpoints?

fein 14y ago
If the decision to go was unanimous then how is this a problem? They went to a restaurant that advertises the objectifying of women, with employees (of the eatery) that are totally OK with it as well. Now, if one of those employees decided to voice resistance to the idea and they carried on despite this, we would have a problem. I don't see a problem with the author's specific instance, nor would I have a problem with an all female/ voluntary crew heading out to man hooters and throwing it up all over the intertubes.
- hythloday 14y ago
  It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Fewer organizations that welcome women mean a less attractive industry for women, which is the polar opposite of avoiding gender inequality. Pretty much any time you're discussing inequality, if you reach for "it would be OK if the situations were reversed", you are choosing to ignore the substance of the problem, which is that 99.9% of the time the situations are not reversed.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Is it really, though? If so, why? Men who enjoy going to Hooters are not necessarily crude, aggressive louts who treat women poorly. And a company that has lunch at Hooters is hardly a place where women are automatically unwelcome, or treated as inferior. In fact, I see very little connection her at all. As a man, I find that appreciating beautiful women and celebrating sexuality are completely orthogonal to my desire to treat women as respected peers and colleagues in the workplace and to treat women with respect based on factors other than their physical appearance.
    - hythloday 14y ago
      Even the post I replied to admitted that it would be a problem if there was a woman in the company who objected. If you assume that women are more likely to object to going there than men, and that men in the company enjoy going there, it's obvious that a woman would be less welcome to join the company than a man. I think you're seeking to interpret "unwelcome" as implying deliberate slights or cold shoulders, which isn't what I was getting at - I mean that the company culture would have to change more to accommodate a woman than a man, and that this would be obvious to the woman.
  - prodigal_erik 14y ago
    Unwelcome? I've never understood this. The stereotype is that attractive people got hired by being attractive (or maybe for putting out) rather than being competent, but I have trouble believing anyone has never met any coworkers who were both. I've had my share of crushes on sharp people I've worked with; it's my responsibility not to let it be an issue, and so I don't.

zopa 14y ago

You've got it backwards: this is the context. It probably wouldn't trigger a lawsuit on its own; it's the reason you'd lose that lawsuit, or have to settle on very unfavorable terms. Look at the cases the OP mentioned. Each one has a concrete injury (getting passed over for a promotion, etc.), plus evidence suggesting that gender discrimination was the reason for the injury. Now imagine that a well-qualified women applied for a job with this startup, and was passed over. Given the breastaurant photo, it would look very plausible that the applicant wasn't hired because the founders hire people they like, and they like guys they can see themselves hanging out with at places like this.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

prodigal_erik 14y ago

If your team has a documented history of this sort of thoughtcrime, any woman with a grudge and a lawyer can use that to fry you. Whatever you think of the ethics, it's blatantly self-destructive behavior within the US system of employment law.