6 ms·

Luckily there's no unemployment problem in the U.S., because if there was, the H1B program would just be a way for companies to hire employees at well below mar

Luckily there's no unemployment problem in the U.S., because if there was, the H1B program would just be a way for companies to hire employees at well below market wages, further depressing the U.S. economy. http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:S&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:US&ifdim=country&tstart=784616400000&tend=1336795200000&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false&q=us+unemployment http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&#...

wavephorm 14y ago
You should also link to data showing how H1B workers are paid less than Americans, this one says on average $13,000 per year less: http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages
- enraged_camel 14y ago
  Wage discrimination based on visa status is illegal, though. Before a company petitions for an H1-B on behalf of a foreign worker, they first have to apply for a labor certification showing that the worker's wage is close to the mean wage for that job title in that region. What is most likely happening is that once the foreign workers get their H1-B visas, they are denied raises and bonuses. And since their staying in the US is contingent upon their employment, they don't have much negotiating power.
  - tosseraccount 14y ago
    Wage discrimination based on visa status is illegal? No it's not. Theoretically employer must pay "prevailing wage" ( legal types conveniently ignore the fact that increasing the supply of labor lowers the price of labor - Econ. 101, supply and demand, check it out ...). There's nothing preventing an employer from saying, "well I'm paying what I think is the 'prevailing wage'. I have two "equally qualified" employees: one a U.S. citizen and the other a guest worker visa. I'm giving a bonus to the citizen but not the guest worker". Welcome to global labor arbitrage, specially targeted at your profession. Big software wins. You lose!
    - enraged_camel 14y ago
      << There's nothing preventing an employer from saying, "well I'm paying what I think is the 'prevailing wage'.>> The employer does not determine what the prevailing wage is. The US Department of Labor does. Prevailing wage = the mean wage for that position in that region.
      - cmadan 14y ago
        That is correct. The prevailing wage amount was clearly listed on my h1B application form and there is no way legally they can pay you less than that.
        excuse-me 14y ago
        But there are a 100 ways around it. In fees, expenses, supplying you housing and a car as part of the deal, or simply not paying you what it says on the W4. You don't like it? You're fired - now you have 12hours to get out and to the airport before we call the INS
        potatolicious 14y ago
        You realize that the INS hasn't existed for 9 years? If you're going to run on old stereotypes, keeping the lingo up to date might help.
        excuse-me 14y ago
        Like KGB->FSB? New name, same friendly service!
    - yummyfajitas 14y ago
      Want a job you are qualified for? Too bad, born in wrong country. Welcome to global labor protectionism. American guy wins, you lose.
      - 14y ago
  - untog 14y ago
    Before a company petitions for an H1-B on behalf of a foreign worker, they first have to apply for a labor certification showing that the worker's wage is close to the mean wage for that job title in that region. Those mean wages are way, way off base though. When I first arrived in New York three years ago the mean wage provided by the certification was $45,000. I do not know a single developer on a salary that low.
    - dsolomon 14y ago
      We've got a few where I work - Washington DC, with top secret clearance. 45K is about right.
- sundae79 14y ago
  Did it take into account lawyer fees paid for sponsoring that visa?
Symmetry 14y ago
These aren't liberal arts majors here. The recession doubled unemployment among programmers and electrical engineers, but that means that they're up to 2.4% and 1.6% now. The US demand for STEM majors has been growing steadily, but the number of people graduating in STEM majors has been decreasing steadily over the last decade.
- dsolomon 14y ago
  Cry me a river. Pay decent wages.
- tosseraccount 14y ago
  Degree is not necessary in tech business. Ellison, Gates, Jobs all dropped out of college. The people that teach themselves and have a "go get 'em" attitude tend to do the best. Perhaps a little on the job training is all we need to compensate for the "steady decline".
  - spiralpolitik 14y ago
    And there lies one of the cruxes of the issue. Companies want to recruit 'unicorns', people who are absolutely perfect for the job. People that they don't have to train and can be parachuted into a position and be 100% productive from day one. They want an XXX or YYY developer, not a good general purpose software engineer who can learn new things quickly. Such 'unicorns' either don't exist or are rare enough that they can command a premium in salary that most companies don't want to pay. So instead of recruiting someone who is competent but needs some training (say recruiting a good Java/C developer and sending them on a training course to learn Ruby), they would rather whine that there is a shortage of software developers and petition for more H1Bs.

wavephorm 14y ago

You should also link to data showing how H1B workers are paid less than Americans, this one says on average $13,000 per year less: http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages

enraged_camel 14y ago
Wage discrimination based on visa status is illegal, though. Before a company petitions for an H1-B on behalf of a foreign worker, they first have to apply for a labor certification showing that the worker's wage is close to the mean wage for that job title in that region. What is most likely happening is that once the foreign workers get their H1-B visas, they are denied raises and bonuses. And since their staying in the US is contingent upon their employment, they don't have much negotiating power.
- tosseraccount 14y ago
  Wage discrimination based on visa status is illegal? No it's not. Theoretically employer must pay "prevailing wage" ( legal types conveniently ignore the fact that increasing the supply of labor lowers the price of labor - Econ. 101, supply and demand, check it out ...). There's nothing preventing an employer from saying, "well I'm paying what I think is the 'prevailing wage'. I have two "equally qualified" employees: one a U.S. citizen and the other a guest worker visa. I'm giving a bonus to the citizen but not the guest worker". Welcome to global labor arbitrage, specially targeted at your profession. Big software wins. You lose!
  - enraged_camel 14y ago
    << There's nothing preventing an employer from saying, "well I'm paying what I think is the 'prevailing wage'.>> The employer does not determine what the prevailing wage is. The US Department of Labor does. Prevailing wage = the mean wage for that position in that region.
    - cmadan 14y ago
      That is correct. The prevailing wage amount was clearly listed on my h1B application form and there is no way legally they can pay you less than that.
      - excuse-me 14y ago
        But there are a 100 ways around it. In fees, expenses, supplying you housing and a car as part of the deal, or simply not paying you what it says on the W4. You don't like it? You're fired - now you have 12hours to get out and to the airport before we call the INS
        potatolicious 14y ago
        You realize that the INS hasn't existed for 9 years? If you're going to run on old stereotypes, keeping the lingo up to date might help.
        excuse-me 14y ago
        Like KGB->FSB? New name, same friendly service!
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    Want a job you are qualified for? Too bad, born in wrong country. Welcome to global labor protectionism. American guy wins, you lose.
    - 14y ago
- untog 14y ago
  Before a company petitions for an H1-B on behalf of a foreign worker, they first have to apply for a labor certification showing that the worker's wage is close to the mean wage for that job title in that region. Those mean wages are way, way off base though. When I first arrived in New York three years ago the mean wage provided by the certification was $45,000. I do not know a single developer on a salary that low.
  - dsolomon 14y ago
    We've got a few where I work - Washington DC, with top secret clearance. 45K is about right.
sundae79 14y ago
Did it take into account lawyer fees paid for sponsoring that visa?

Symmetry 14y ago

These aren't liberal arts majors here. The recession doubled unemployment among programmers and electrical engineers, but that means that they're up to 2.4% and 1.6% now. The US demand for STEM majors has been growing steadily, but the number of people graduating in STEM majors has been decreasing steadily over the last decade.

dsolomon 14y ago
Cry me a river. Pay decent wages.
tosseraccount 14y ago
Degree is not necessary in tech business. Ellison, Gates, Jobs all dropped out of college. The people that teach themselves and have a "go get 'em" attitude tend to do the best. Perhaps a little on the job training is all we need to compensate for the "steady decline".
- spiralpolitik 14y ago
  And there lies one of the cruxes of the issue. Companies want to recruit 'unicorns', people who are absolutely perfect for the job. People that they don't have to train and can be parachuted into a position and be 100% productive from day one. They want an XXX or YYY developer, not a good general purpose software engineer who can learn new things quickly. Such 'unicorns' either don't exist or are rare enough that they can command a premium in salary that most companies don't want to pay. So instead of recruiting someone who is competent but needs some training (say recruiting a good Java/C developer and sending them on a training course to learn Ruby), they would rather whine that there is a shortage of software developers and petition for more H1Bs.