6 ms·

Racist plant names will change after historic vote by botanists

30 points by XzetaU8 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
zoklet-enjoyer 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kaffir_(racial_term)&diffonly=true https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kaffir_(racial_...
- kylebenzle 2y ago
  Thank you! After reading the article that was my next question!
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Is the Kaffir lime [1] affected? It's a homonym. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_lime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_lime
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    I was a working cook back then and we switched to makrut lime in like 2006. Line cooks not known particularly for delicate language or sensitivity fwiw.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - IvyMike 2y ago
    In my foodie circles I hear makrut lime more often.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  I’m curious which direction the etymology goes. Often what starts out as an innocuous descriptive word gets negatively charged over time, for example “retard”. Were the plants really named after a word for nonbelievers? Or is there a common root for both. For example if it started as a regional term it could have evolved into a slur. I’m not opposed to the change, I just find it interesting/amusing from a cultural perspective if the euphemism treadmill is now extending to plants.
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    South Park nailed it. Once you open this door all is an endless road of somebody, somewhere, feeling outraged by something, and demanding to be changed. In the end the goal seems to destroy one of the few things that we still agreed to do collectively as human species. Using an universal way to name the creatures that live in the planet. The same species will have different Scientific names for suiting the preferences of Chinese, USA, Brazilians or Russians. After all, it isn't "racist" not being able to use the Chinese alphabet on scientific names? Scientists will be automatically tagged as belonging to ideology or political party by the names that they will choose to enforce. Countries with republics will try to wipe names honoring the kings of monarchies that patronage the scientific expeditions. They don't even understand, or even worse don't care, about the precedent that they are setting.
    - erulabs 2y ago
      I don’t disagree, but a counter point is that no one has ever agreed on everything - and colloquial names for species already exist — and that language drifts to and fro like a fog. Statis in connotation or denotation sounds somehow totalitarian to me. Even outside of colloquial speech and in the world of science, everything should be in flux, shouldn’t it? The idea that the whole world would use the same language sounds much worse than the opposite: that different people would act differently.
      - pvaldes 2y ago
        > no one has ever agreed on everything Every biologist since 1700 agreed to use the Taxonomic rules (or tried, and failed, to improve the system). This collective project is one of our main success as species. Or maybe we should say "it was", that building has eroded a lot in the last 100 years. That congress is basically the mess what happens where all scientists had been replaced by politicians.
viburnum 2y ago
Plant names are changing constantly anyway so this is not a big deal, just a nice thing to do.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  We could also rename Harry Potter to Harry Clerk, to avoid the nasty racism of the producers of China Pottery. Without asking J.K. what thinks about it of course. The opinion of the scientists that choose Erythrina caffra instead the much more acceptable "Soylent bland", does not matter anymore.
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    > We could also rename Harry Potter to Harry Clerk Hell yeah why not
  - kazinator 2y ago
    Hirsute Ceramist
pvaldes 2y ago
[flagged]
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  They aren't deleting the knowledge of the species, just changing the name. They aren't saying everything is racist, just that racial slurs are. I'm pretty sure you knew both of these things when you wrote your comment too, so I'm struggling to understand what is going on here. Maybe you should rephrase as like "I don't mind a little racial slurring, it adds spice to science" or something? "It keeps us grounded in the scientific tradition of personal naming of species, and the racism is an acceptable cost for it" would at least be honest.
  - mbivert 2y ago
    It's actually not limited to racial slurs: > Yellow-flowered shrubs called Hibbertia, after anti-abolitionist George Hibbert, are one plant group that some botanists would like to rename. It's so easy to be against slavery when living in a society where everyone is against slavery (Edit: people aren't black and white, I think it's great that we remember the names of "imperfect" people; it shows humility, open-mindedness, tolerance of viewpoints we may not agree with, etc.). Regarding slurs: > One of the proposals aims to rename an estimated 218 species whose scientific names are based on the word caffra and various derivatives — which are ethnic slurs often used against Black people in southern Africa — and to replace it with derivatives of ‘afr’ to instead recognize Africa So, it's a very "local" slur: "caffra" sounds adorable to me. Reminiscent of the "coq"[0] story (which means "roaster" in French). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq_(software)
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      That example is also a good one to rename though. Everyone is imperfect, but there's nothing sacrosanct about this naming tradition, or any particular name emerging from it. As pointed out elsewhere species names change all the time for a variety of reasons: this is just one of them. As for your personal aesthetic feelings about specific slurs I don't find them interesting, useful or compelling at all. I frankly cannot even guess what you thought that was adding to this conversation.
ramon156 2y ago
I barely know any plant names, so I'll happily agree and forget about it ¯ \ _ ( ツ ) _ / ¯
- pvaldes 2y ago
  Being blind to most of your surroundings is very sad. Can I suggest you to start with the interesting genus Ramonda?
listless 2y ago
I researched this a bit and it looks like the actual slur is "Kaffir", which is also spelled "Cafri" and comes from the Muslim term for "non-believer". And somehow this word was chosen to be used as a slur and is considered highly offensive in South Africa. As an American, I'll draw a similarity with the "N" word. But is the plant name racist in the sense that when they named it, they were picking the slur purposefully? Or does the word simply _sound_ like the slur? Even the latter can be enough if you consider what it would be like if name had the "N" word - or even something that had the same sound. You would literally be unable to use the plant name out loud. But it would be important for publications covering this to not call it a "racist plant name" as that really depends on how the name was given. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)?useskin=v...
- microtherion 2y ago
  A few years ago, I stumbled across a technical term in old patent filings that I'm pretty sure has been replaced by now: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/62/28/01/cdb0d1cf50bfd7/US186011.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/62/28/01/cdb0d1c...
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Im not sure that one is unrelated to the offensive term.
  - RichardCA 2y ago
    The mechanism in a steam-driven sawmill that holds the log in place and is adjusted when the angle or thickness of the cut needs to be changed. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/542122/origin-of-machine-term-sawmill-n-er https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/542122/origin-of...
- jimmaswell 2y ago
  We don't seem to care about soundalikes in other contexts like "chink in your armor" or "spick and span", so why go after obscure plant names that sound vaguely like obscure slurs in obscure languages if you squint your ears real hard? Maybe someone had a paucity of productive work to do so they came up with this project others couldn't criticize out loud without getting canceled?
kazinator 2y ago
If you've never heard of "caffra", you're not woke enough for this; just snooze your alarm and go back to sleep.
- porkbeer 2y ago
  Can you explain how this comment? Many people avoid racism as a matter of course, and this seems rather niche at that. Are you suggesting not knowing a slur is itself racist?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - kazinator 2y ago
    I'm saying you're not properly woke if you don't study and memorize the entire catalog of racist slurs in all the world's languages, and point out anything that is remotely similar.

30 points by XzetaU8 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kaffir_(racial_term)&diffonly=true https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kaffir_(racial_...

kylebenzle 2y ago
Thank you! After reading the article that was my next question!
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
Is the Kaffir lime [1] affected? It's a homonym. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_lime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_lime
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  I was a working cook back then and we switched to makrut lime in like 2006. Line cooks not known particularly for delicate language or sensitivity fwiw.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- IvyMike 2y ago
  In my foodie circles I hear makrut lime more often.
pfannkuchen 2y ago
I’m curious which direction the etymology goes. Often what starts out as an innocuous descriptive word gets negatively charged over time, for example “retard”. Were the plants really named after a word for nonbelievers? Or is there a common root for both. For example if it started as a regional term it could have evolved into a slur. I’m not opposed to the change, I just find it interesting/amusing from a cultural perspective if the euphemism treadmill is now extending to plants.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  South Park nailed it. Once you open this door all is an endless road of somebody, somewhere, feeling outraged by something, and demanding to be changed. In the end the goal seems to destroy one of the few things that we still agreed to do collectively as human species. Using an universal way to name the creatures that live in the planet. The same species will have different Scientific names for suiting the preferences of Chinese, USA, Brazilians or Russians. After all, it isn't "racist" not being able to use the Chinese alphabet on scientific names? Scientists will be automatically tagged as belonging to ideology or political party by the names that they will choose to enforce. Countries with republics will try to wipe names honoring the kings of monarchies that patronage the scientific expeditions. They don't even understand, or even worse don't care, about the precedent that they are setting.
  - erulabs 2y ago
    I don’t disagree, but a counter point is that no one has ever agreed on everything - and colloquial names for species already exist — and that language drifts to and fro like a fog. Statis in connotation or denotation sounds somehow totalitarian to me. Even outside of colloquial speech and in the world of science, everything should be in flux, shouldn’t it? The idea that the whole world would use the same language sounds much worse than the opposite: that different people would act differently.
    - pvaldes 2y ago
      > no one has ever agreed on everything Every biologist since 1700 agreed to use the Taxonomic rules (or tried, and failed, to improve the system). This collective project is one of our main success as species. Or maybe we should say "it was", that building has eroded a lot in the last 100 years. That congress is basically the mess what happens where all scientists had been replaced by politicians.

viburnum 2y ago

Plant names are changing constantly anyway so this is not a big deal, just a nice thing to do.

pvaldes 2y ago
We could also rename Harry Potter to Harry Clerk, to avoid the nasty racism of the producers of China Pottery. Without asking J.K. what thinks about it of course. The opinion of the scientists that choose Erythrina caffra instead the much more acceptable "Soylent bland", does not matter anymore.
- jrflowers 2y ago
  > We could also rename Harry Potter to Harry Clerk Hell yeah why not
- kazinator 2y ago
  Hirsute Ceramist

pvaldes 2y ago

[flagged]

giraffe_lady 2y ago
They aren't deleting the knowledge of the species, just changing the name. They aren't saying everything is racist, just that racial slurs are. I'm pretty sure you knew both of these things when you wrote your comment too, so I'm struggling to understand what is going on here. Maybe you should rephrase as like "I don't mind a little racial slurring, it adds spice to science" or something? "It keeps us grounded in the scientific tradition of personal naming of species, and the racism is an acceptable cost for it" would at least be honest.
- mbivert 2y ago
  It's actually not limited to racial slurs: > Yellow-flowered shrubs called Hibbertia, after anti-abolitionist George Hibbert, are one plant group that some botanists would like to rename. It's so easy to be against slavery when living in a society where everyone is against slavery (Edit: people aren't black and white, I think it's great that we remember the names of "imperfect" people; it shows humility, open-mindedness, tolerance of viewpoints we may not agree with, etc.). Regarding slurs: > One of the proposals aims to rename an estimated 218 species whose scientific names are based on the word caffra and various derivatives — which are ethnic slurs often used against Black people in southern Africa — and to replace it with derivatives of ‘afr’ to instead recognize Africa So, it's a very "local" slur: "caffra" sounds adorable to me. Reminiscent of the "coq"[0] story (which means "roaster" in French). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq_(software)
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    That example is also a good one to rename though. Everyone is imperfect, but there's nothing sacrosanct about this naming tradition, or any particular name emerging from it. As pointed out elsewhere species names change all the time for a variety of reasons: this is just one of them. As for your personal aesthetic feelings about specific slurs I don't find them interesting, useful or compelling at all. I frankly cannot even guess what you thought that was adding to this conversation.

ramon156 2y ago

I barely know any plant names, so I'll happily agree and forget about it ¯ \ _ ( ツ ) _ / ¯

pvaldes 2y ago
Being blind to most of your surroundings is very sad. Can I suggest you to start with the interesting genus Ramonda?

listless 2y ago

I researched this a bit and it looks like the actual slur is "Kaffir", which is also spelled "Cafri" and comes from the Muslim term for "non-believer". And somehow this word was chosen to be used as a slur and is considered highly offensive in South Africa. As an American, I'll draw a similarity with the "N" word. But is the plant name racist in the sense that when they named it, they were picking the slur purposefully? Or does the word simply _sound_ like the slur? Even the latter can be enough if you consider what it would be like if name had the "N" word - or even something that had the same sound. You would literally be unable to use the plant name out loud. But it would be important for publications covering this to not call it a "racist plant name" as that really depends on how the name was given. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)?useskin=v...

microtherion 2y ago
A few years ago, I stumbled across a technical term in old patent filings that I'm pretty sure has been replaced by now: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/62/28/01/cdb0d1cf50bfd7/US186011.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/62/28/01/cdb0d1c...
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Im not sure that one is unrelated to the offensive term.
- RichardCA 2y ago
  The mechanism in a steam-driven sawmill that holds the log in place and is adjusted when the angle or thickness of the cut needs to be changed. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/542122/origin-of-machine-term-sawmill-n-er https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/542122/origin-of...
jimmaswell 2y ago
We don't seem to care about soundalikes in other contexts like "chink in your armor" or "spick and span", so why go after obscure plant names that sound vaguely like obscure slurs in obscure languages if you squint your ears real hard? Maybe someone had a paucity of productive work to do so they came up with this project others couldn't criticize out loud without getting canceled?

kazinator 2y ago

If you've never heard of "caffra", you're not woke enough for this; just snooze your alarm and go back to sleep.

porkbeer 2y ago
Can you explain how this comment? Many people avoid racism as a matter of course, and this seems rather niche at that. Are you suggesting not knowing a slur is itself racist?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- kazinator 2y ago
  I'm saying you're not properly woke if you don't study and memorize the entire catalog of racist slurs in all the world's languages, and point out anything that is remotely similar.