2 ms·

I love the satire!

Manuel_D 2y ago
The whole part about civilizing the Middle East and Africa sounds dumb. But it does really ring true for Europe, Korea, and Japan. My Polish and Estonian coworkers really do enthusiastically support Pax Americana. Because when you have a hostile (or potentially hostile) country on your border, you actually have to take a sobering look at your country's survival.
- impossiblefork 2y ago
  It does absolutely not ring true for Europe. Even for WWII, Hitler was a specifically German character, and it wasn't as if though he lacked opponents, so he didn't even represent all of Germany, and he was actually inspired by the US and by Turkey rather than by European thought. The US has actually been the source of some very recent and significant barbarism in Europe, for example, the torture that happened at Bromma airport despite promises, and after quite extreme threats against Sweden's trade, the torture prisons in Poland, Lithuania and Romania, etc. So I actually think it's almost the complete other way around. But it's always nice to have allies against hostile powers like Russia, and I think that's what the Estonians appreciate.
  - southernplaces7 2y ago
    You must be incredibly blind to basic modern history to not see exactly how it does ring true for Europe. It was specifically the U.S. and its support for other western countries in Europe that eventually freed them from the grip of the Nazis and later from being counter-occupied by the USSR crushing its way westward. This potential invasion was stopped mainly by a U.S. supported presence in the west. Whatever Hitler's inspirations for the management of his genocide, it was uniquely his in a way that nobody could sanely blame on the United States. Finally, your picking a specific, Bush-era rendition programs as an example of recent barbarism in Europe, vs an entire, full-scale fucking war started by the Putin government in the east is laughable as an example of barbarism being more the fault of the Americans and their domination in Europe.
    - impossiblefork 2y ago
      >You must be incredibly blind to basic modern history to not see exactly how it does ring true for Europe. It was specifically the U.S. and its support for other western countries in Europe that eventually freed them from the grip of the Nazis and later from being counter-occupied by the USSR crushing its way westward. This potential invasion was stopped mainly by a U.S. supported presence in the west. What freed them from the grip of the Nazis was the destruction of large numbers of Nazis forces in the Soviet Union. Stalingrad alone involved greater losses for Germany than on the entire western front. >Whatever Hitler's inspirations for the management of his genocide, it was uniquely his in a way that nobody could sanely blame on the United States. That's not an absolutely unreasonable view, but do take the same view of Turkey's part? >Finally, your picking a specific, Bush-era rendition programs as an example of recent barbarism in Europe, vs an entire, full-scale fucking war started by the Putin government in the east is laughable as an example of barbarism being more the fault of the Americans and their domination in Europe. This happened a couple of years ago. The torturers and planners almost certainly still work at the CIA. Many of the lower-level participants probably aren't older than 45. These people were here in Sweden, torturing people that had been handed over after an explicit promise to the Swedish government that they wouldn't be tortured. I picked this particular act because it figuratively almost happened almost right in front of me-- in places that I regularly visit. If I'd been at the flight school at Bromma and happened to be there at the right time I could potentially have seen it with my own eyes. Russia being bad does not mean that the US has a place in Europe, or should have influence here, or is something civilisation-promoting. I see the US as an active destabiliser of certain countries and quite untrustworthy. When the US was done with Iraq there were probably more Syriacs in Sweden than there.

I love the satire!

The whole part about civilizing the Middle East and Africa sounds dumb. But it does really ring true for Europe, Korea, and Japan. My Polish and Estonian coworkers really do enthusiastically support Pax Americana. Because when you have a hostile (or potentially hostile) country on your border, you actually have to take a sobering look at your country's survival.

impossiblefork 2y ago
It does absolutely not ring true for Europe. Even for WWII, Hitler was a specifically German character, and it wasn't as if though he lacked opponents, so he didn't even represent all of Germany, and he was actually inspired by the US and by Turkey rather than by European thought. The US has actually been the source of some very recent and significant barbarism in Europe, for example, the torture that happened at Bromma airport despite promises, and after quite extreme threats against Sweden's trade, the torture prisons in Poland, Lithuania and Romania, etc. So I actually think it's almost the complete other way around. But it's always nice to have allies against hostile powers like Russia, and I think that's what the Estonians appreciate.
- southernplaces7 2y ago
  You must be incredibly blind to basic modern history to not see exactly how it does ring true for Europe. It was specifically the U.S. and its support for other western countries in Europe that eventually freed them from the grip of the Nazis and later from being counter-occupied by the USSR crushing its way westward. This potential invasion was stopped mainly by a U.S. supported presence in the west. Whatever Hitler's inspirations for the management of his genocide, it was uniquely his in a way that nobody could sanely blame on the United States. Finally, your picking a specific, Bush-era rendition programs as an example of recent barbarism in Europe, vs an entire, full-scale fucking war started by the Putin government in the east is laughable as an example of barbarism being more the fault of the Americans and their domination in Europe.
  - impossiblefork 2y ago
    >You must be incredibly blind to basic modern history to not see exactly how it does ring true for Europe. It was specifically the U.S. and its support for other western countries in Europe that eventually freed them from the grip of the Nazis and later from being counter-occupied by the USSR crushing its way westward. This potential invasion was stopped mainly by a U.S. supported presence in the west. What freed them from the grip of the Nazis was the destruction of large numbers of Nazis forces in the Soviet Union. Stalingrad alone involved greater losses for Germany than on the entire western front. >Whatever Hitler's inspirations for the management of his genocide, it was uniquely his in a way that nobody could sanely blame on the United States. That's not an absolutely unreasonable view, but do take the same view of Turkey's part? >Finally, your picking a specific, Bush-era rendition programs as an example of recent barbarism in Europe, vs an entire, full-scale fucking war started by the Putin government in the east is laughable as an example of barbarism being more the fault of the Americans and their domination in Europe. This happened a couple of years ago. The torturers and planners almost certainly still work at the CIA. Many of the lower-level participants probably aren't older than 45. These people were here in Sweden, torturing people that had been handed over after an explicit promise to the Swedish government that they wouldn't be tortured. I picked this particular act because it figuratively almost happened almost right in front of me-- in places that I regularly visit. If I'd been at the flight school at Bromma and happened to be there at the right time I could potentially have seen it with my own eyes. Russia being bad does not mean that the US has a place in Europe, or should have influence here, or is something civilisation-promoting. I see the US as an active destabiliser of certain countries and quite untrustworthy. When the US was done with Iraq there were probably more Syriacs in Sweden than there.