4 ms·

Exacly. I've myself been looking around HAMs from networking point of view. I am networker and I would love to get hands on some digital radio.. at least 128Kbp

by Borg3 2y ago

Exacly. I've myself been looking around HAMs from networking point of view. I am networker and I would love to get hands on some digital radio.. at least 128Kbps, ideally 1024Kbps stuff where I can slap all the protocol to build network on top of it and then IP. But nope, cannot find anything interesting with decent ranges and cheap enough to buy for tinkering. It seems to be a nische that noone cares to claim. I know about HSMM, but they are using normal WiFi AP and just slap custom software on top of it and use HAM frequencies. Not bad idea... They communities are also awfully closed. I tried to find some IRC servers for HAM/network related stuff and no luck really. Found one channel, but they are mostly US people out there (TZ issue for me).

Manuel_D 2y ago
Another issue is that encryption is not allowed on amateur radio, so most internet applications are a no-go.
- mingus88 2y ago
  That's somewhat of an unenforceable policy. Encrypted content is pretty much indistinguishable from noise or interference. And there's a ton of perfectly allowable obfuscation techniques that are good enough to secure most comms while still following the letter of the regulation. It's true, this isn't going to replace internet applications, but that's not why hams are doing this to begin with.
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    > Encrypted content is pretty much indistinguishable from noise or interference. Wrong. This is only true in the sense that the bits sent appear to be randomly chosen. Encrypted content sent over radio is still going to adhere to a modulation scheme like FSK, QSK, or something. A simpler analogue is sending coded Morse code. Yes, the dots and dashes appear random, but it's certainly not noise you can very clearly recognize it as Morse. Also, you need to send your callsign in clear text in each transmission. So people will see your call sign and then unintelligible bits after it, and it's easily recognized as encrypted transmissions. What you're describing is more akin to frequency hopping where RF transmissions are sent out over a broad spectrum. But even then it's still distinguishable from noise unless a very fast hop interval is used. You're right that you'll probably not get in trouble for it. The FCC really only cares if you're disrupting much more important activities.
ianburrell 2y ago
There aren't many radios in the higher frequency bands that can be used for networking. That is why people repurpose existing hardware. BTW, amateurs are limited in what they can use radio for. Replacing existing communication systems is not allowed, efffectively meaning that can't have non-ham users. The systems I know about are for ham-only communication, like linking repeater sites.
- hasmanean 2y ago
  Yes, discussing politics or broadcasting music is not allowed over ham radio. Basically all we can do is exchange call signs, locations and details about our signals and stations. I have wondered if you could use the fact that analog radio over short distances has latencies measured in the microseconds, so you could have a jazz band with players scattered over an entire city, but they can play like they are in the same room. Internet comms have too much latency (measured in the milliseconds).
jaybe1001 2y ago
This is worth a look as works over packet radio. https://github.com/markqvist/Reticulum https://github.com/markqvist/Reticulum Also: https://discord.gg/Ay7tj7w4 https://discord.gg/Ay7tj7w4
- Borg3 2y ago
  Thanks for info, but I do NOT need network stack. I have my own, I can build my own. I need decent hardware, because I lack knowledge and skills here. Also, its not an interesting stuff to me to play with DSPs and all that stuff really.
pclmulqdq 2y ago
What you want to do isn't really what the HAMs want you to be doing anyway. 128-1024 Kbps generally means a ridiculously large bandwidth compared to what most HAM channels allow unless you're really close to your recipient and can use a very wide QAM modulation, in which case your equipment is going to be $$. Your best bet is to stick to the ISM bands, which is where WiFi is anyway.
- genewitch 2y ago
  HF is ~300baud (it matters that it's baud, because "what's a symbol, really") The faster you send information, the more bandwidth it takes, even if it's morse code. A slow, 6-10 word per minute transmission may be 1-3hz wide, but a skilled operator, even with a clean transmitter will take 30+hz to do 60+WPM. i don't remember the exact number but basically any reference will explain it. so 1024kbps with the sort of technology that exists in the space right now is basically larger than the spectrum available to us in any band in HF. 128kbit transmitted is probably larger than the spectrum available (you can't transmit past the band edges per license, even if it's "splatter") on all of the HF bands, too.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    With multi-level modulation, baud is only half of the story, and the other half is SNR. 300 baud at QAM-4096 is 1.2 Mbps, but you have to have extremely good SNR to use QAM-4096. SNR + bandwidth goes into a calculation of the Shannon limit of a channel.
lormayna 2y ago
A colleague of mine (networker and ham radio) engineered a small devices based on LoRa to connect over SSH to network gears consoles during a campus network migration.
ale42 2y ago
There's NPR (new packet radio) on the 430 MHz band, never tried myself but it looks interesting. See for example https://hackaday.io/project/164092-npr-new-packet-radio https://hackaday.io/project/164092-npr-new-packet-radio. It can transport IP and goes up to 500 kbps.
- Borg3 2y ago
  Yeah! I know about NPR.. cool project :)

by Borg3 2y ago

Manuel_D 2y ago

Another issue is that encryption is not allowed on amateur radio, so most internet applications are a no-go.

mingus88 2y ago
That's somewhat of an unenforceable policy. Encrypted content is pretty much indistinguishable from noise or interference. And there's a ton of perfectly allowable obfuscation techniques that are good enough to secure most comms while still following the letter of the regulation. It's true, this isn't going to replace internet applications, but that's not why hams are doing this to begin with.
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  > Encrypted content is pretty much indistinguishable from noise or interference. Wrong. This is only true in the sense that the bits sent appear to be randomly chosen. Encrypted content sent over radio is still going to adhere to a modulation scheme like FSK, QSK, or something. A simpler analogue is sending coded Morse code. Yes, the dots and dashes appear random, but it's certainly not noise you can very clearly recognize it as Morse. Also, you need to send your callsign in clear text in each transmission. So people will see your call sign and then unintelligible bits after it, and it's easily recognized as encrypted transmissions. What you're describing is more akin to frequency hopping where RF transmissions are sent out over a broad spectrum. But even then it's still distinguishable from noise unless a very fast hop interval is used. You're right that you'll probably not get in trouble for it. The FCC really only cares if you're disrupting much more important activities.

ianburrell 2y ago

There aren't many radios in the higher frequency bands that can be used for networking. That is why people repurpose existing hardware. BTW, amateurs are limited in what they can use radio for. Replacing existing communication systems is not allowed, efffectively meaning that can't have non-ham users. The systems I know about are for ham-only communication, like linking repeater sites.

hasmanean 2y ago
Yes, discussing politics or broadcasting music is not allowed over ham radio. Basically all we can do is exchange call signs, locations and details about our signals and stations. I have wondered if you could use the fact that analog radio over short distances has latencies measured in the microseconds, so you could have a jazz band with players scattered over an entire city, but they can play like they are in the same room. Internet comms have too much latency (measured in the milliseconds).

jaybe1001 2y ago

This is worth a look as works over packet radio. https://github.com/markqvist/Reticulum https://github.com/markqvist/Reticulum Also: https://discord.gg/Ay7tj7w4 https://discord.gg/Ay7tj7w4

Borg3 2y ago
Thanks for info, but I do NOT need network stack. I have my own, I can build my own. I need decent hardware, because I lack knowledge and skills here. Also, its not an interesting stuff to me to play with DSPs and all that stuff really.

pclmulqdq 2y ago

What you want to do isn't really what the HAMs want you to be doing anyway. 128-1024 Kbps generally means a ridiculously large bandwidth compared to what most HAM channels allow unless you're really close to your recipient and can use a very wide QAM modulation, in which case your equipment is going to be $$. Your best bet is to stick to the ISM bands, which is where WiFi is anyway.

genewitch 2y ago
HF is ~300baud (it matters that it's baud, because "what's a symbol, really") The faster you send information, the more bandwidth it takes, even if it's morse code. A slow, 6-10 word per minute transmission may be 1-3hz wide, but a skilled operator, even with a clean transmitter will take 30+hz to do 60+WPM. i don't remember the exact number but basically any reference will explain it. so 1024kbps with the sort of technology that exists in the space right now is basically larger than the spectrum available to us in any band in HF. 128kbit transmitted is probably larger than the spectrum available (you can't transmit past the band edges per license, even if it's "splatter") on all of the HF bands, too.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  With multi-level modulation, baud is only half of the story, and the other half is SNR. 300 baud at QAM-4096 is 1.2 Mbps, but you have to have extremely good SNR to use QAM-4096. SNR + bandwidth goes into a calculation of the Shannon limit of a channel.

lormayna 2y ago

A colleague of mine (networker and ham radio) engineered a small devices based on LoRa to connect over SSH to network gears consoles during a campus network migration.

ale42 2y ago

There's NPR (new packet radio) on the 430 MHz band, never tried myself but it looks interesting. See for example https://hackaday.io/project/164092-npr-new-packet-radio https://hackaday.io/project/164092-npr-new-packet-radio. It can transport IP and goes up to 500 kbps.

Borg3 2y ago
Yeah! I know about NPR.. cool project :)