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Kudos to the critics for raising the issue, and to the Foundation for engaging with them. The changing of the convention name and the changing of the logo repre

Kudos to the critics for raising the issue, and to the Foundation for engaging with them. The changing of the convention name and the changing of the logo represent incremental progress. Changing the name of the Foundation may be challenging, but more incremental progress is possible — here are a couple ideas: * Encourage projects to go by just "Foo" rather than "Apache Foo". * Re-release the "Apache License 2.0" as the "ASF License 2.0". Disclosure: Although I haven't been active for years I'm a past ASF board member.

pavi2410 2y ago
I fail to understand what's wrong with the name "Apache". Is/Was he a dictator/mass murderer or something?
- svieira 2y ago
  No, in this case someone (it's unclear who precisely since the linked blog doesn't have an About page) didn't like it. Why? Because using names that don't belong to you is stealing (according to their view). I'm not entirely sure I follow that line of reasoning, but looking at the blog that the ASF linked to which includes lines like: > But I've got thousands of years of (re)learning to do and will never have the power of the matriarchs, so I follow the lead of the women in my life and do as I'm told. https://blog.nativesintech.org/jeff-doctor/ https://blog.nativesintech.org/jeff-doctor/ I suspect there's a lot of context that is missing.
- brodouevencode 2y ago
  It's no longer okay to reference or use symbols of other cultures, no matter how innocent or praising of that culture it might be without their permission.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - oddevan 2y ago
    What someone outside the culture thinks is "innocent or praising" might not be seen that way by someone inside the culture. That's why we ask permission.
    - svieira 2y ago
      Who within the culture is empowered to authorize you? Can I ask any Irishman for permission to use a shamrock? Or are there particular Irish personages who have authority and I must ask them?
      - worik 2y ago
        > Who within the culture is empowered to authorize you? Not you, or me > Can I ask any Irishman for permission to use a shamrock? That is unfair. American Indians, in the USA, are treated as if they do not exist. To quote the Brian Behlendorf (of the ASF): > Native American tribe called the Apaches, right, who succumbed to the invasion from the West, from the United States, and they were the last tribe to give up their territory and for me that almost romantically represented what I felt we were doing with this web-server project… I think the Apache people take exception when the attempted genocide, of them, is "romantically represented" > This frankly outdated spaghetti-Western “romantic” presentation of a living and vibrant community as dead and gone in order to build a technology company “for the greater good” Yes The Irish (some of my ancestors) are in a different boat. But if you want to coopt the Irish shamrock for your server software, it is still in bad taste if you have nothing to do with Eire. But because the English did not eliminate the Irish, barely, they get to set the agenda. There are not so many romantic descriptions of the potato famine. Some, but they are in very bad taste. Put yourself in the shoes of people who are told that the story of their near genocide, is "romantic". The ASF are starting to do the right thing, and we should be calling them the ASF too. I appreciate the difficulties they are going to have changing their name, but that needs to be done too. We cannot live in peace together when we do not listen to each other, and when re romanticise others tragedy for our own careless reasons
        Macha 2y ago
- jsiepkes 2y ago
  Dictators and mass murderer roots are not a problem. For example I don't think there is much fuss about Hugo Boss (Sponsor of the Nazi's, designed and produced the SS uniforms), Volkswagen (car brand literally created by the Nazi's), Porsche (Ferdinand Porsche was a decorated SS officer and Nazi party member) or Ford (Henry Ford was a big fan of the Nazi's and was even decorated by Hitler).
  - worik 2y ago
    What has that got to do with the ASF or the Apache people?
    - jsiepkes 2y ago
      OP asked: "Is/Was he a dictator/mass murderer or something?" so I answered dictators and mass murder roots are in general not regarded as a problem.
mightyham 2y ago
Since you say this is progress, do you mind elaborating on what exactly this is progress toward? Even if the ASF fully changed their name tomorrow, what actual positive impact is that going to have on Native Americans?
- rectang 2y ago
  It gains Native Americans agency when they are able to determine how their culture is portrayed and represented, rather than be told that they have no choice but to have bear the representation that is foisted on them. Self-determination doesn't show up as a bank sheet entry, but it's not meaningless.
  - mightyham 2y ago
    Native Americans have the agency/self-determination to portray themselves however they want regardless of the name of ASF. You seem to be arguing that Native Americans should have an exclusive right in determining how they are portrayed which is not only the opposite of progress, but is also treats them as a monolithic group, which is ignorant of sheer amount of diversity among Native Americans.
    - atonse 2y ago
      Also in this case, we don’t have to generalize “Native Americans” but specifically the Apache peoples/tribes. What have they said about this?
- ktm5j 2y ago
  As a member of a marginalized minority group myself, I'd like to think that the answer to this question would be obvious..
  - mightyham 2y ago
    Then state the obvious for me please because I don't think it is. I don't see how, in a multi-ethnic nation, making the neutral use of a name (in the case the use is actually positive) exclusionary to specific ethnicities is progress. It seems like a regression in our culture that we are having tribal quibbles over immaterial usage of language.

pavi2410 2y ago

I fail to understand what's wrong with the name "Apache". Is/Was he a dictator/mass murderer or something?

svieira 2y ago
No, in this case someone (it's unclear who precisely since the linked blog doesn't have an About page) didn't like it. Why? Because using names that don't belong to you is stealing (according to their view). I'm not entirely sure I follow that line of reasoning, but looking at the blog that the ASF linked to which includes lines like: > But I've got thousands of years of (re)learning to do and will never have the power of the matriarchs, so I follow the lead of the women in my life and do as I'm told. https://blog.nativesintech.org/jeff-doctor/ https://blog.nativesintech.org/jeff-doctor/ I suspect there's a lot of context that is missing.
brodouevencode 2y ago
It's no longer okay to reference or use symbols of other cultures, no matter how innocent or praising of that culture it might be without their permission.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- oddevan 2y ago
  What someone outside the culture thinks is "innocent or praising" might not be seen that way by someone inside the culture. That's why we ask permission.
  - svieira 2y ago
    Who within the culture is empowered to authorize you? Can I ask any Irishman for permission to use a shamrock? Or are there particular Irish personages who have authority and I must ask them?
    - worik 2y ago
      > Who within the culture is empowered to authorize you? Not you, or me > Can I ask any Irishman for permission to use a shamrock? That is unfair. American Indians, in the USA, are treated as if they do not exist. To quote the Brian Behlendorf (of the ASF): > Native American tribe called the Apaches, right, who succumbed to the invasion from the West, from the United States, and they were the last tribe to give up their territory and for me that almost romantically represented what I felt we were doing with this web-server project… I think the Apache people take exception when the attempted genocide, of them, is "romantically represented" > This frankly outdated spaghetti-Western “romantic” presentation of a living and vibrant community as dead and gone in order to build a technology company “for the greater good” Yes The Irish (some of my ancestors) are in a different boat. But if you want to coopt the Irish shamrock for your server software, it is still in bad taste if you have nothing to do with Eire. But because the English did not eliminate the Irish, barely, they get to set the agenda. There are not so many romantic descriptions of the potato famine. Some, but they are in very bad taste. Put yourself in the shoes of people who are told that the story of their near genocide, is "romantic". The ASF are starting to do the right thing, and we should be calling them the ASF too. I appreciate the difficulties they are going to have changing their name, but that needs to be done too. We cannot live in peace together when we do not listen to each other, and when re romanticise others tragedy for our own careless reasons
      - Macha 2y ago
jsiepkes 2y ago
Dictators and mass murderer roots are not a problem. For example I don't think there is much fuss about Hugo Boss (Sponsor of the Nazi's, designed and produced the SS uniforms), Volkswagen (car brand literally created by the Nazi's), Porsche (Ferdinand Porsche was a decorated SS officer and Nazi party member) or Ford (Henry Ford was a big fan of the Nazi's and was even decorated by Hitler).
- worik 2y ago
  What has that got to do with the ASF or the Apache people?
  - jsiepkes 2y ago
    OP asked: "Is/Was he a dictator/mass murderer or something?" so I answered dictators and mass murder roots are in general not regarded as a problem.

mightyham 2y ago

Since you say this is progress, do you mind elaborating on what exactly this is progress toward? Even if the ASF fully changed their name tomorrow, what actual positive impact is that going to have on Native Americans?

rectang 2y ago
It gains Native Americans agency when they are able to determine how their culture is portrayed and represented, rather than be told that they have no choice but to have bear the representation that is foisted on them. Self-determination doesn't show up as a bank sheet entry, but it's not meaningless.
- mightyham 2y ago
  Native Americans have the agency/self-determination to portray themselves however they want regardless of the name of ASF. You seem to be arguing that Native Americans should have an exclusive right in determining how they are portrayed which is not only the opposite of progress, but is also treats them as a monolithic group, which is ignorant of sheer amount of diversity among Native Americans.
  - atonse 2y ago
    Also in this case, we don’t have to generalize “Native Americans” but specifically the Apache peoples/tribes. What have they said about this?
ktm5j 2y ago
As a member of a marginalized minority group myself, I'd like to think that the answer to this question would be obvious..
- mightyham 2y ago
  Then state the obvious for me please because I don't think it is. I don't see how, in a multi-ethnic nation, making the neutral use of a name (in the case the use is actually positive) exclusionary to specific ethnicities is progress. It seems like a regression in our culture that we are having tribal quibbles over immaterial usage of language.