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Evolving the ASF Brand
- nathanwh 2y agoI don’t know that I’ve ever seen such a short article so clearly demonstrate how much don’t actually care about the people who they are to trying to placate. They’re changing the feather because it’s apparently offensive to reference it, but they’re not changing the name because it would cost money. Even though the name is way more tightly tied to the people than the feather. I don’t actually care about the logo or the name I just find having the dichotomy so clearly spelled out interesting.
- kajecounterhack 2y agoIt's in the FAQ. When a name has been in use as long and is as widely used as ours, the legal, technical, and financial ramifications are broad and deep. A name change effort would have a hefty price tag, would take multiple years to implement, and would have to be led almost entirely by volunteers. As a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization, it is not possible to divert the majority of our funding and volunteers away from our primary mission of providing software for the public good, especially as the foundation prepares for mandatory changes that will come from the Cybersecurity Resilience Act (CRA) and other pending legislation. Because of these very real challenges, at this time it would be very difficult to implement a legal name change for The ASF. Because of these reasons, the ASF Board has decided to prioritize changing the logo and branding and not changing the organization’s name at this time. It is important to us that we take whatever actionable steps we can now to create a more welcoming and inclusive community.
- nathanwh 2y agoI did read that part, I just feel that the idea that somehow something good comes from removing the feather (which is negligible expense relative to changing the name), is just plainly saying that we care about inclusivity but only so long as it’s not expensive. Which is more or less the policy of every large organization, but it’s rare that it gets said.
- kajecounterhack 2y agoI read it as "we can't do it now because complex reasons, but we know it's still a problem and want to do it" and that feels pretty good. Like who's supposed to set the timeline for rectifying long-lived errors in judgement? Unwinding long-lived errors generally takes time.
- orra 2y agoIt's cheaper to change the name and logo in one go, than to change the logo; then later change the name and logo. I cannot agree they want to change the name, otherwise they would be.
- wrs 2y agoAs someone who once implemented a name change for a much, much smaller company, I can tell you this is just not so. You have to find and fix every contract, bank account, government registration, checkbook, domain name, knowledge base article…it’s endless. And some of those changes cost money in addition to time.
- tannhaeuser 2y agoAIU using the feather along with the Apache name could be seen as mindlessly evoking the stereotypical image of a native American as in naive 1950/1960s Western movies, which adds insult to the act of cultural appropriation that is merely using the name.
- toast0 2y agoHere's my cheap suggestion. Change the name from Apache Software Foundation to "A Software Foundation" (or even "ASF Software Foundation"). Change instances of 'Apache X' to 'ASF X'; ex Apache HTTPd becomes ASF HTTPd. The license becomes the ASF License. You can do it in steps. Anything that's currently Apache X could become ASF X on its own schedule. asf.org seems to be managed by a foundation that changed its name away from ASF in 2010, so it might be available (presumably at some cost) for the ASF to make use of to replace apache.org over time. This still costs money and time, but it would do the job over time, with a minimal upfront expenses.
- orra 2y agoI appreciate your suggestion of the recursive acronym, ASF Software Foundation.
- zappb 2y agoMaintaining the trademark requires continued use of Apache. Without the domain name in control, the security implications are disastrous considering how much legacy technology has the domain name hard coded.
- toast0 2y agoIf they're going to change their name, they will of course need to abandon the old trademarks. Anyone claiming their old trademarks for new, will have the same problem of appropriating an indigenous name, and also the issue of approrpriating an abandoned name. Trademark law allows it, but it's not a good look for the newcomer. For the domain, I would imagine a very long transition. There's a reason the current owner of asf.org still maintains that despite changing their organizational name away in 2010. If ASF starts using a new name and domain name today, I'd expect it takes about 3 years for everything to be fully moved, but old links will need to continue to work for some time after that. Some sort of annual review with a usage threshold would be appropriate... if there's negligable requests to http(s)://httpd.apache.org by 2034, you can remove the A/AAAA records. And a year or two or five, after there are no longer any DNS records for apache.org, it can be transitioned to another organization. Perhaps a transition can be arranged sooner if shared usage can be agreed upon; the new owner could use www while deprecated names continue to redirect.
- exmadscientist 2y agoThe irony is that the name is much worse than just the logo. Feathers are pretty common, even if they're often associated with Native Americans. The word "Apache" is only one thing: the actual name of a Native tribe. So changing the logo without changing the name doesn't do much, while changing the name while keeping the logo would.
- mplewis 2y agoThey have addressed in TFA why they are changing the logo now and changing the name later.
- exmadscientist 2y agoThat doesn't make their explanation any good.
- orra 2y agoThere's no legal ramification of changing their name. Companies change their names every so often; it doesn't erase their legal rights or obligations. Technical? Not sure what huge problems they are, but as a Software Foundation you'd think they'd be well placed to deal with the issues. Financial? That may be true, but it costs less if you do it as part of the one branding refresh.
- rectang 2y agoJust because the ASF's officers won't go to jail for changing the name doesn't mean there aren't any legal ramifications. Trademarks are a legal issue, for starters. Defending the Foundation's trademarks is a big part of what goes on, even if most of that work is done quietly and non-confrontationally. Technical issues would involve for example the apache.org domain, and all the security issues from decades worth of links pointing to it.
- orra 2y agoA domain rewrite permanent redirect is pretty straightforward.
- singleshot_ 2y agoIf you change the name of your company without informing the bank, your creditors, your secured creditors, your shareholders, the state corporation commission, and your firms statutory agent, you will run into some legal problems quickly. The legal ramifications of changing your name is a ton of documentation, notification, and registration.
- orra 2y agoYou're not really describing that much effort in the scheme of things: make a filing and notify several parties. Annual accounts are a far bigger burden, and they have to be done.
- singleshot_ 2y ago
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- mplewis 2y agoDid you read TFA? This is explained.
- IncreasePosts 2y agoIt's explained, but poorly. Basically "it's too expensive to pay this important respect that we think is deserving"
- jjmarr 2y agoHere's the blog posts that called out the ASF and prompted them to make this change. https://www.endasfmascotry.com/ https://www.endasfmascotry.com/ https://blog.nativesintech.org/apache-appropriation/ https://blog.nativesintech.org/apache-appropriation/ The quotes about the feather: > This essay introduced a few examples of Indian warriors with full headdress, but what if just one feather is presented—is it sufficient to conjure images of savage warriors? Well, probably not just one feather, unless it can be associated with some other stereotypical image. In this case, what if the feather is paired with the word “Apache”? > It is interesting that the Apache Web site provides a link to a Web site devoted to the Apache people, providing “stereotypical proof” that the feather symbol and the foundation name are designed to evoke images of the Apache people. This is all the more interesting in light of the fact that perhaps history’s most photographed Indigenous warrior—the Apache Geronimo—was not inclined to adorn himself in this fashion. In fact, even Hollywood depictions of Geronimo eschew the feather look. Yet the stereotypical image of the feathered Indian persists.
- Yhippa 2y agoKinda strange to go from "a patchy server" to using Native American imagery in the logo, albeit a much less offensive in than American sports teams.
- mikepurvis 2y agoThe quote from Brian Behlendorf on the Natives In Tech page makes it clear that the name was always connected to the indigenous groups.
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- rectang 2y agoKudos to the critics for raising the issue, and to the Foundation for engaging with them. The changing of the convention name and the changing of the logo represent incremental progress. Changing the name of the Foundation may be challenging, but more incremental progress is possible — here are a couple ideas: * Encourage projects to go by just "Foo" rather than "Apache Foo". * Re-release the "Apache License 2.0" as the "ASF License 2.0". Disclosure: Although I haven't been active for years I'm a past ASF board member.
- pavi2410 2y agoI fail to understand what's wrong with the name "Apache". Is/Was he a dictator/mass murderer or something?
- svieira 2y agoNo, in this case someone (it's unclear who precisely since the linked blog doesn't have an About page) didn't like it. Why? Because using names that don't belong to you is stealing (according to their view). I'm not entirely sure I follow that line of reasoning, but looking at the blog that the ASF linked to which includes lines like: > But I've got thousands of years of (re)learning to do and will never have the power of the matriarchs, so I follow the lead of the women in my life and do as I'm told. https://blog.nativesintech.org/jeff-doctor/ https://blog.nativesintech.org/jeff-doctor/ I suspect there's a lot of context that is missing.
- brodouevencode 2y agoIt's no longer okay to reference or use symbols of other cultures, no matter how innocent or praising of that culture it might be without their permission.
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- oddevan 2y agoWhat someone outside the culture thinks is "innocent or praising" might not be seen that way by someone inside the culture. That's why we ask permission.
- drewda 2y agoWhen I see the word "evolving" used as a verb, I'm suspicious -- corporate language often used to soften something with vagueness. But after reading this announcement, the substance is actually both meaningful and practical. Props to ASF's leaders.
- onli 2y agoThe idea that using a symbol across cultures is a misappropriation is an extension of the ideology that cultures should not mix. It's the thinking that everyone would be better of if each person stayed in their culture barrier - and you know which kind of thinking that is, from which political side on the spectrum. It's sad that an organisation like this feels the need to give legitimacy to that anti-multicultural ideology.
- acc4everypici 2y agoI am bothered by the implicit assumptions around property and ownership over cultural symbols which are tacit in your thinking. as explicitly as I can, the very notion of saying "this is my culture, why are you adopting cultural practices or beliefs or symbols (or anything) from a culture that isn't yours!?" is why I'm raising a red flag here. I have a problem with that attitude. this is not an easy topic.
- jackbravo 2y agoIt is not easy. Personally, I'm on the other side of the fence. As Mexican, we often see our culture "misrepresented" in media. But generally, all my friends and family hate it when they "correct it". For example, we loved Speedy Gonzalez, Yepa yepa! Arriba Arriba! When he was canceled, I guess some people were bothered, but I'm sure there was no consensus around Mexicans whether we wanted it gone. I bet if you did a survey, most Mexicans loved the character. And the same happens with sombreros, nopales and huaraches. I love seeing people using them, people recognizing them, and even selling them (wish all times they were Mexican made, but hey, you can't have it all). It sometimes bothers us, especially when the stereotype affects us personally while looking for jobs, opportunities, etc. But I like having a strong culture that other people imitate, and would rather find ways to educate people in the wrong when the occasion arises and when it is not in our favor than just cancelling it for good.
- jackbravo 2y agoI was curious and searched, and what do you know, I found an article about Mexicans defending Speedy Gonzalez: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-03-17/speedy-gonzales-cancelled-hollywood-mexican-americans https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-03-17/speedy-g...
- amne 2y ago[flagged]
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- mplewis 2y agoPlease explain what you mean here. Who is being canceled?
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- captn3m0 2y agoAs someone who will have to work on implementing this I don’t like this wording: > Starting October 7, 2024, your usage of The ASF’s logo must be in compliance with the new logo and brand guidelines that will be available on our Brand Guidelines page. If the logo is announced on 7th, how can someone be expected to adopt the new guidelines in a day. Why not just set it to 31 Oct or something? I know it wouldn’t matter in practice since ASF wouldn’t go after sites for using the old logo, but still.
- LinuxScribe 2y agoThis is a fair point, and we will make the timing more realistic.
- 3np 2y ago3 months sounds about realistic for these kinds of changes IMO. Coincidentally, that's similar lead-time to what you seem to be giving yourselves here ;)
- msla 2y agoAlso: > Starting October 7, 2024, your usage of The ASF’s logo must be in compliance with the new logo and brand guidelines that will be available on our Brand Guidelines page. Or else what? What's the penalty being threatened? How many people are they prepared to sue?
- amne 2y ago[flagged]
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- frou_dh 2y agoI've always thought that the original neon-lookin' feather in particular looked great and was very memorable.
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- moomoo11 2y agoHonestly I prefer type face logos. Way cleaner and zero issues
- dt2m 2y agoWhat a major victory for birds all across the globe. A feather is not ours to steal and parade around as if it’s our own culture. Maybe the ASF could replace this with a lock of human hair instead.
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- cyrilou242 2y agoCan't wait for a cancel article from the Amazon people now.
- mightyham 2y agohttps://blog.nativesintech.org/apache-appropriation/ https://blog.nativesintech.org/apache-appropriation/ To be blunt, I think the arguments in this blog post are very weak. First of all, they completely fail to demonstrate how the name of ASF has any actual material impact on native peoples. Regardless of that glaring flaw, this piece focuses on the issue of respect for Apache culture and history. Framed another way, their thesis is that using the name of a nation for something unrelated is disrespectful, especially because this nation has suffered historical injustice. There are a couple ironies about this argument. One being that the ASF is a widely respected organization with noble efforts. They chose the name Apache because of admirable aspects of that peoples past. This leads to positive feelings and respectfulness toward the Apache people. Another irony is their claim that a name should be off-limits for other uses or by other people is exclusionary, entitled, and childish, which paints the Apache as a people who deserve less respect. The last thing I'll say is that their entire section about romanticization is just strange. In what world is attributing (even falsely) positive attributes to a nation/people a bad thing? They have a problem because it isn't dynamic enough? But why does historical memory have to be dynamic in the first place? I fail to see what is inherently virtuous about accurately deconstructing every topic all the time.
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- worik 2y agoIs there anybody from Natives in Tech we can hear from? Judging from the referenced blogs they have a very relevant POV. Not really a comfortable place, here on HN. A lot of unthinking racism here.
- rectang 2y agoVoices like those from Natives in Tech would just get downvoted to oblivion and greyed out, no matter how civil and guidelines-compliant. This is a place where the marginalized are erased. Think of engaging with HN as venturing into hostile territory and you won't be as disappointed.
- motohagiography 2y agotbh "community over code" branding of the conference is more irritating than the logo controversy, but anyone can re-license their code under a new framework. these organiations are fluid. maybe someone should just stand up a new license and call it the Pioneer foundation and use an arrow logo, because everyone in the world used arrows, and they say that you can always tell who the pioneers were because they're the ones with the arrows in their backs.
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- rdtsc 2y agoIt's good that they are paying attention and listening. Changing the name is hard, but the logo is a good start. > We thank Natives in Tech and other members of the broader open source community for bringing this issue to the forefront. They asked the broader open source community, and I saw the blog post, but are the authors representative of any of the Apache tribes? It seems one obvious missing piece is the foundation reaching out to at least some of the tribes to ask them what they think about this. I am sure they did over the years but probably failed to mention it on their site. The people in these tribes are normal human beings living today [1]. You can talk with them and see what they'll say. They may well request to do away with the name and the feather, and foundation should then respect that, but they may not mind, either, or may suggest altering the logo, the description, etc. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache
- ribcage 2y agoAnd this will probably mark the end of Apache. All good things come to an end. I never even associated their name or symbol with native Americans. This is idiotic.
- oynqr 2y agoHow about letting OpenOffice go instead?