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> people want bigger vehicles. This is absolutely not true. The demand is manufactured. Car companies in the US are building bigger SUVs and trucks because the

> people want bigger vehicles. This is absolutely not true. The demand is manufactured. Car companies in the US are building bigger SUVs and trucks because they are classified different and have less strict emissions regulations.

EricE 2y ago
Yup. Government regulations once again screwing those of us who prefer smaller vehicles. Looking at you, Chicken Tax!
- Amezarak 2y ago
  Government regulation didn't kill the Ford Focus or the Honda Fit. No sales did.
  - rglullis 2y ago
    You can not compare sales of two different classes of vehicles if one of them has subsidies and/or allow for a bigger profit margins. This is basic microeconomics. If the Honda CR-V, the Ford Explorer and every other car of a similar or bigger size had to pay the same tax as smaller ones, they would sell less.
    - Amezarak 2y ago
      You could buy a Honda Fit for 17k, the bottom of Honda’s car lineup. Much cheaper than a CRV. If you look at the actual CAFE standards you’ll see this had nothing to do with this particular case anyway, but even if it did, if consumers really wanted small cars the volume of Fit sales would rapidly outpace CRVs and it’d make up for the lower margin. They didn’t though. Because Americans didn’t want them. The emissions regulations people talk about are easy to look up online and there was undoubtedly a real effect on the viability of larger vehicles but it is hugely overstated online. The main reason for huge cars is because they really are much more useful and comfortable for anything except gas mileage and city parking, Americans can afford them, and such models generally have more social clout. The Fit in particular is an amazing car. There’s actually much more room for the driver than in even much larger cars. With the seats down you can fit all kinds of crazy stuff in there - even 8ft lumber. It didn’t die because of government regulation. It died because Americans by and large think it’s a ridiculous car to drive around in, so it didn’t sell. And because despite all those things, a three row SUV or a truck has more general utility.
      - rglullis 2y ago
        > gas mileage and city parking Which are exactly the things heavily subsidized in the US!
        Amezarak 2y ago
        Does unsubsidized energy exist in the US? Either way, that’s two dimensions out of dozens. I could argue that efficiency has come a long way (my large SUV gets 40mpg) but more than that people really will pay huge amounts in gas to drive these cars regardless. While I was paying a little over a hundred a month for my Fit in gas other people were paying just south of a thousand. They could have easily moved down and chose not to. I guess you could plan to turn up the pain as much as possible for as long as possible but I’m not sure how you can accomplish that in a democracy. City parking is not that big a deal, most people don’t do it most of the time. Obviously people value the dozens of other dimensions they assess cars on much more than these two.
        rglullis 2y ago
        Sorry, you can not at the same time argue "efficiency has gone a long way" and "other people were paying just south of a thousand". It's one or the other. I'm kind of tired of these discussions. It's completely absurd to associate quality of life, safety and general comfort with the size of the car. If they were not brainwashed by marketing, 99.995% of people that drive a SUV or pick-up truck would find more utility and value in having a Station Wagon, an actual van or a properly-sized commuter car. If you want a simple way to check this, just look at the fact that those that really need trucks are importing it from Japan [0] because the industry is not interested in serving them. The lengths that Americans will try to justify their completely illogical behavior is pathological. They would rather believe in American Exceptionalism than face the truth that they are being played for fools by the Auto industry. It's easier to keep eating up the BS that they "need" a bigger car than to learn the ways that the system is rigged so that you can fight it. [0]: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/04/20/rural-americans-are-importing-tiny-japanese-pickup-trucks https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/04/20/rural-ame...
- rqtwteye 2y ago
  The regulations were designed by the car manufacturers.
kjkjadksj 2y ago
You can still buy subcompacts though
- rglullis 2y ago
  Which ones?
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    Wow, I guess automakers really killed off their linup the last couple of years. Nissan versa still exists at least. As well as a couple year old toyota yaris, ford fiesta or honda fit.
Amezarak 2y ago
> This is absolutely not true. The demand is manufactured. Car companies in the US are building bigger SUVs and trucks because they are classified different and have less strict emissions regulations. My car sat on the lot for months before I bought it. There was plenty of inventory and Honda managed to sell something like 10-11k of them that year. There was no conspiracy here. People just didn't want a small car. People regularly make fun of me for driving such a small car.
jtbayly 2y ago
Are you telling me that the top three best-selling vehicles in the country are all pickup trucks, but people actually want small sedans?
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Not sure it's even possible to distinguish between "what people actually want" and "what manufacturers have convinced them to want." Auto industry marketing is so steeped in psychology and persuasion, it's hard to tell where the border is between the customer's brain and the industry's marketers. If you mostly produce pickup trucks, you're going to make sure that the general public "wants" pickup trucks.
- rglullis 2y ago
  No, I'm telling you that if they had to pay for the externalities incurred by the larger trucks, they would opt out of them.
kube-system 2y ago
It is both. Car companies started making larger vehicles due to CAFE restrictions, but consumers also started preferring larger vehicles. The data is clear about this, many of the options for small cars that did exist over the past 20 years have been discontinued due to poor sales. I think part of this is: 1. people want to keep up with the joneses 2. as other cars in traffic get larger, some people don't want to want to drive cars that make them feel small on the road by comparison... the "I want to sit up high so I can see better" effect.

EricE 2y ago

Yup. Government regulations once again screwing those of us who prefer smaller vehicles. Looking at you, Chicken Tax!

Amezarak 2y ago
Government regulation didn't kill the Ford Focus or the Honda Fit. No sales did.
- rglullis 2y ago
  You can not compare sales of two different classes of vehicles if one of them has subsidies and/or allow for a bigger profit margins. This is basic microeconomics. If the Honda CR-V, the Ford Explorer and every other car of a similar or bigger size had to pay the same tax as smaller ones, they would sell less.
  - Amezarak 2y ago
    You could buy a Honda Fit for 17k, the bottom of Honda’s car lineup. Much cheaper than a CRV. If you look at the actual CAFE standards you’ll see this had nothing to do with this particular case anyway, but even if it did, if consumers really wanted small cars the volume of Fit sales would rapidly outpace CRVs and it’d make up for the lower margin. They didn’t though. Because Americans didn’t want them. The emissions regulations people talk about are easy to look up online and there was undoubtedly a real effect on the viability of larger vehicles but it is hugely overstated online. The main reason for huge cars is because they really are much more useful and comfortable for anything except gas mileage and city parking, Americans can afford them, and such models generally have more social clout. The Fit in particular is an amazing car. There’s actually much more room for the driver than in even much larger cars. With the seats down you can fit all kinds of crazy stuff in there - even 8ft lumber. It didn’t die because of government regulation. It died because Americans by and large think it’s a ridiculous car to drive around in, so it didn’t sell. And because despite all those things, a three row SUV or a truck has more general utility.
    - rglullis 2y ago
      > gas mileage and city parking Which are exactly the things heavily subsidized in the US!
      - Amezarak 2y ago
        Does unsubsidized energy exist in the US? Either way, that’s two dimensions out of dozens. I could argue that efficiency has come a long way (my large SUV gets 40mpg) but more than that people really will pay huge amounts in gas to drive these cars regardless. While I was paying a little over a hundred a month for my Fit in gas other people were paying just south of a thousand. They could have easily moved down and chose not to. I guess you could plan to turn up the pain as much as possible for as long as possible but I’m not sure how you can accomplish that in a democracy. City parking is not that big a deal, most people don’t do it most of the time. Obviously people value the dozens of other dimensions they assess cars on much more than these two.
        rglullis 2y ago
        Sorry, you can not at the same time argue "efficiency has gone a long way" and "other people were paying just south of a thousand". It's one or the other. I'm kind of tired of these discussions. It's completely absurd to associate quality of life, safety and general comfort with the size of the car. If they were not brainwashed by marketing, 99.995% of people that drive a SUV or pick-up truck would find more utility and value in having a Station Wagon, an actual van or a properly-sized commuter car. If you want a simple way to check this, just look at the fact that those that really need trucks are importing it from Japan [0] because the industry is not interested in serving them. The lengths that Americans will try to justify their completely illogical behavior is pathological. They would rather believe in American Exceptionalism than face the truth that they are being played for fools by the Auto industry. It's easier to keep eating up the BS that they "need" a bigger car than to learn the ways that the system is rigged so that you can fight it. [0]: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/04/20/rural-americans-are-importing-tiny-japanese-pickup-trucks https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/04/20/rural-ame...
rqtwteye 2y ago
The regulations were designed by the car manufacturers.

kjkjadksj 2y ago

You can still buy subcompacts though

rglullis 2y ago
Which ones?
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Wow, I guess automakers really killed off their linup the last couple of years. Nissan versa still exists at least. As well as a couple year old toyota yaris, ford fiesta or honda fit.

Amezarak 2y ago

> This is absolutely not true. The demand is manufactured. Car companies in the US are building bigger SUVs and trucks because they are classified different and have less strict emissions regulations. My car sat on the lot for months before I bought it. There was plenty of inventory and Honda managed to sell something like 10-11k of them that year. There was no conspiracy here. People just didn't want a small car. People regularly make fun of me for driving such a small car.

jtbayly 2y ago

Are you telling me that the top three best-selling vehicles in the country are all pickup trucks, but people actually want small sedans?

ryandrake 2y ago
Not sure it's even possible to distinguish between "what people actually want" and "what manufacturers have convinced them to want." Auto industry marketing is so steeped in psychology and persuasion, it's hard to tell where the border is between the customer's brain and the industry's marketers. If you mostly produce pickup trucks, you're going to make sure that the general public "wants" pickup trucks.
rglullis 2y ago
No, I'm telling you that if they had to pay for the externalities incurred by the larger trucks, they would opt out of them.

kube-system 2y ago

It is both. Car companies started making larger vehicles due to CAFE restrictions, but consumers also started preferring larger vehicles. The data is clear about this, many of the options for small cars that did exist over the past 20 years have been discontinued due to poor sales. I think part of this is: 1. people want to keep up with the joneses 2. as other cars in traffic get larger, some people don't want to want to drive cars that make them feel small on the road by comparison... the "I want to sit up high so I can see better" effect.