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Consumers have been loudly saying they want hybrids[1]. Full electric vehicles are not practical for most people just yet. But instead manufacturers have made l

Consumers have been loudly saying they want hybrids[1]. Full electric vehicles are not practical for most people just yet. But instead manufacturers have made larger and larger vehicles and went too far with EV options instead of just providing hybrid options. https://info.oregon.aaa.com/aaa-interest-in-evs-wanes-more-americans-want-hybrids/ https://info.oregon.aaa.com/aaa-interest-in-evs-wanes-more-a...

jader201 2y ago
A big selling point for EVs, for me, was much lower maintenance. No brake disc/pad replacements, no oil changes -- or any fluids! -- and no trips to the gas station. Mostly just tire rotations/replacements. Hybrids still require roughly the same maintenance as ICE vehicles, and also have to deal with battery life on top.
- mh- 2y ago
  I've not owned an EV, why would you not have to replace the brakes? I understand that regenerative braking reduces their wear, but that's also offset to some degree by the vehicle being heavier.
  - xeromal 2y ago
    You don't never change them but it is pretty minimal. I put around 100k miles on my tesla and never had to change my brakes. If you treat an EV like a stick shift car and just time your stopping via coasting, you rarely need the brakes to the point where you have to slam on your brakes from time to time to burn off road junk
    - mh- 2y ago
      Gotcha. I live in a hilly area - regular +/- 2000 ft elevation changes on a given trip. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Brake maintenance sucks, even more than needing new tires.
      - xeromal 2y ago
        So I live in the SFV in socal where the area I live in is very flat but it's mountainous all around. One of the neat things is using a bunch of battery going up a mountain and then gaining 70% of the loss back going back down riding purely on regenerative charging rather than brakes. It's a game and I'm sure there's a lot of people that just jam on the brakes but it's a great way to save money and it's not so aggressive that you're causing a traffic jam on the way down.
  - jader201 2y ago
    On the EV6, there's a paddle behind the steering wheel that you can use instead of the brake pedal that will use 100% regenerative braking. I use that almost exclusively, only using the brake pedal when I don't brake soon enough and it's necessary for a quicker stop (which is maybe 5-10% of the time). Also, the brake pedal uses regenerative braking most (maybe 80-90%) of the time, unless (again) needed for quicker stops, or if it detects friction braking hasn't been used for a while (just to clean off the pads). So by my rough estimate, I'm guessing we use regenerative braking about 90% of the time, which means it should be about 10x the timeframe (vs. ICE vehicles) to replace brake pads/discs.
    - mh- 2y ago
      Oh that's really interesting.. I didn't realize there was a separate paddle for braking. The PHEVs I've driven only had it in the pedal. I should rent one to try out, seems neat.
    - kjkjadksj 2y ago
      To be fair you can do that with an ice manual transmission too via engine braking.
      - rqtwteye 2y ago
        Regenerative braking works way better than engine braking.
        kjkjadksj 2y ago
        I can use engine braking to come to basically a complete stop.
  - recursive 2y ago
    Because they don't wear enough over the lifetime of the vehicle to require replacing.
MisterBastahrd 2y ago
If you want cars to be smaller, you're going to have to put an upper limit on the size of vehicles on public roadways. I think a lot of people would actually be receptive to smaller vehicles, but auto manufacturers have put virtually zero effort into a way that easily expands back-of-vehicle storage for grocery trips, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is, but popping out the rear seat and hauling it out of the car ain't it.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > you're going to have to put an upper limit on the size of vehicles on public roadways Tax based on weight.
- camtarn 2y ago
  Honda has 'Magic Seats' as a feature in a few of their cars, most notably the Fit/Jazz. These rear seats fold completely flat so you can treat the car as a very small van - my Jazz spends almost all its time with the seats folded, and I've been able to fit a remarkable amount of stuff into it. Sadly they've actually stopped putting them in some of their newer car lines (e.g. the Civic) which had them in previous model years.
- nordsieck 2y ago
  From what I understand, part of the problem is the chicken tax[1] that's made light trucks more expensive than they should be. And part of the problem is CAFE standards. It sounds like emissions requirements are set so tight for small trucks that manufacturers have given up on trying to make it work for small trucks. And as you point out, US consumers seem to love large vehicles. For a variety of reasons. For some the need is legitimate (they need to haul or tow big/heavy things). For some, they want to copy the first group. And for some, they want to feel safe, sharing the road with the other big vehicles. --- 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Subcompact hatchback is the solution you are looking for
pnw 2y ago
Hybrid's are not an ideal solution. The additional vehicle complexity is unnecessary and it extends our reliance on fossil fuel infrastructure. It's all the downsides of an ICE car with a slight boost in fuel efficiency. The reality is that most Americans would do fine with an EV but the inability of the incumbents to innovate on affordable EVs and the FUD in the marketplace is a big issue. The top issues in that survey you linked are basically price (fair), battery replacement (FUD) and then charging availability and range anxiety as equal third. Range anxiety is overblown given the vast majority of Americans drive less than 40 miles a day, yet somehow everyone seems to demand a vehicle capable of making 500 mile non-stop road trips.
- HelloMcFly 2y ago
  Until it's easier for me to charge my car, hybrids are indeed the ideal solution when accounting for the additional cost of installing an EV charger in the home. That's a huge "tax", especially when home charging is by far your only reliable option, especially so for the many, many of us with detached garages nowhere close to our home breaker box.
  - pnw 2y ago
    Yes, that's an issue for 30% of people as shown in the survey.
- foobarian 2y ago
  I don't agree range anxiety is overblown. It's a real issue, having driven an EV for a year now. We may drive 50ish miles most days but not being able to go on long trips is a deal breaker; it forces us to keep a second car which is impractical for the vast majority of people.
  - recursive 2y ago
    Why can't you go on long trips?
- kube-system 2y ago
  > The additional vehicle complexity is unnecessary The best selling hybrids on the market aren't simply ICE vehicles with extra stuff slapped on. Most series-parallel designs eliminate the need for many parts that an ICE car would have. For example, many hybrids don't have a starter, accessory belt, torque converter, or multi-ratio transmissions. Due to this, many hybrids have hundreds of fewer moving parts than comparable ICE vehicles.
maxdo 2y ago
Look at China, the leading market in EV 40%+ of sales are EV. You got decent EV's for $8k there. You will have the same in lagging US market. Hybrids are more complex. They will die once you have good and cheap enough battery immediately. In china they already selling cars that can go 600 miles on a single charge. Any range or any other concerns will die once that reach a mass market. You don't need to go to gas station, pay tips, expose yourself to security risks. Just charge at home, it's superior to anything including hybrids.
iamleppert 2y ago
Most people know someone by now who bought an EV and has suffered for it; be it a an expensive battery replacement, problems charging, getting stranded on the side of the road and having to be towed, having to rent a car to do any roadtrips without massive inconvenience and anxiety. Everyone I know who had an EV has ended up going back to regular ICE or Hybrid. For those who say they have no problems and love their electric car, I tell them: just wait. It's only a matter of time. Even most hybrids are not a good deal, when compared to a fuel efficient 4 cylinder. My Dad recently had to replace the battery in his Toyota Prius after only about 100,000 miles. He bought a refurbished battery and got it installed for ~$4k. Toyota wanted $6k for a car that is barely worth that (worthless with a dead battery). It failed about 6 months later, was replaced, before failing again. He ended up getting rid of the car because it wasn't worth it, and replaced it with an ICE Honda Civic. Meanwhile, I've owned my Honda Civic for over 10 years, and outside of regular maintenance, never had a problem with it. I couldn't imagine ever buying a hybrid or electric car.
- recursive 2y ago
  I know at least a dozen people who own EVs, some for over a decade. I doubt any of them will ever go back to ICE. In my two years of EV ownership, I've had fewer problems than I had with ICE, on average. This is all anecdotal, just like your stories.
- EnergyAmy 2y ago
  Those are just not problems. I've got an EV that has required no maintenance for 6 years, which is something that ICE cars can't achieve. I've taken very long road trips without issues, and have been able to charge off of outlets in the middle of nowhere with no gas stations nearby. I charge at home off of a regular outlet, and live where it gets very cold. The number of EVs I see driving around is steadily increasing. All of this, and the tech is only getting better. The anti-EV people are neo-Luddites. It doesn't really matter though, because technology marches on regardless. I will say that I would not want to be an ICE owner when we hit a tipping point and gas stations start closing because most people are driving EVs.
- dagurp 2y ago
  I don't know a single person who's regretted getting an EV. Battery replacements are not needed unless you own a first generation Nissan Leaf. There have been recalls but they happen all the time with fossil fuel vehicles as well.
kjksf 2y ago
And yet the best selling car last year, world-wide, was Tesla Model Y - a fully electric car, not a hybrid. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds: you need a gas engine AND a battery. It doesn't make sense economically. Things cost money and putting both engine and battery costs more that putting just one of those. People care about the price so in practice you end up with a car that has both gimped (cheaper) gas engine and gimped (cheaper) battery and a government subsidy to make it sense financially (for buyer). Not to mention that study after study found that environment benefits of plug-in hybrids have been greatly exaggerated i.e. in real life charging happens 2-3x less than the initial predictions. People buy them mostly because governments offer subsidies making them more attractive than similar gas cars and then don't charge them at all. Which also means that the battery in them is completely useless and it would be better if it wasn't there in the first place.
- foobarian 2y ago
  > People care about the price so in practice you end up with a car that has both gimped (cheaper) gas engine and gimped (cheaper) battery and a government subsidy to make it sense financially (for buyer). On the other hand this makes sense, because the vast majority of trips are short, so the gimped battery works just fine. But for the long trips the gas engine can fill in. It means one can own one car instead of two.
- enragedcacti 2y ago
  > And yet the best selling car last year, world-wide, was Tesla Model Y - a fully electric car, not a hybrid. Toyota sold almost twice as many hybrids as Tesla sold cars in 2023. Comparing a single model's sales is pointless, especially when Tesla carries so few models compared to most manufacturers. > Hybrids are the worst of both worlds: you need a gas engine AND a battery. Most hybrids use a dead simple power split transmission that replaces a complex automatic transmission as well as the alternator and starter. Most of the accessories move off of belts and get replaced with high-voltage electric components similar to an EV. Priuses are the most common taxi and Uber vehicle for a reason. They are extremely reliable and cost effective relative to ICE and even EVs depending on the relative cost of fuel. > It doesn't make sense economically. Things cost money and putting both engine and battery costs more that putting just one of those. The costs are fairly marginal, switching to the Hybrid model of the 2024 Corolla (no subsidy) costs $1450 and nets +15 combined MPG and 0-60 times within 0.2 seconds of one another. At +15 mpg and $3.50/gallon it pays itself off in 50k miles > Not to mention that study after study found that environment benefits of plug-in hybrids have been greatly exaggerated i.e. in real life charging happens 2-3x less than the initial predictions. IIRC this study was from corporate fleets which isn't representative of a consumer who seeks out a PHEV.

jader201 2y ago

A big selling point for EVs, for me, was much lower maintenance. No brake disc/pad replacements, no oil changes -- or any fluids! -- and no trips to the gas station. Mostly just tire rotations/replacements. Hybrids still require roughly the same maintenance as ICE vehicles, and also have to deal with battery life on top.

mh- 2y ago
I've not owned an EV, why would you not have to replace the brakes? I understand that regenerative braking reduces their wear, but that's also offset to some degree by the vehicle being heavier.
- xeromal 2y ago
  You don't never change them but it is pretty minimal. I put around 100k miles on my tesla and never had to change my brakes. If you treat an EV like a stick shift car and just time your stopping via coasting, you rarely need the brakes to the point where you have to slam on your brakes from time to time to burn off road junk
  - mh- 2y ago
    Gotcha. I live in a hilly area - regular +/- 2000 ft elevation changes on a given trip. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Brake maintenance sucks, even more than needing new tires.
    - xeromal 2y ago
      So I live in the SFV in socal where the area I live in is very flat but it's mountainous all around. One of the neat things is using a bunch of battery going up a mountain and then gaining 70% of the loss back going back down riding purely on regenerative charging rather than brakes. It's a game and I'm sure there's a lot of people that just jam on the brakes but it's a great way to save money and it's not so aggressive that you're causing a traffic jam on the way down.
- jader201 2y ago
  On the EV6, there's a paddle behind the steering wheel that you can use instead of the brake pedal that will use 100% regenerative braking. I use that almost exclusively, only using the brake pedal when I don't brake soon enough and it's necessary for a quicker stop (which is maybe 5-10% of the time). Also, the brake pedal uses regenerative braking most (maybe 80-90%) of the time, unless (again) needed for quicker stops, or if it detects friction braking hasn't been used for a while (just to clean off the pads). So by my rough estimate, I'm guessing we use regenerative braking about 90% of the time, which means it should be about 10x the timeframe (vs. ICE vehicles) to replace brake pads/discs.
  - mh- 2y ago
    Oh that's really interesting.. I didn't realize there was a separate paddle for braking. The PHEVs I've driven only had it in the pedal. I should rent one to try out, seems neat.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    To be fair you can do that with an ice manual transmission too via engine braking.
    - rqtwteye 2y ago
      Regenerative braking works way better than engine braking.
      - kjkjadksj 2y ago
        I can use engine braking to come to basically a complete stop.
- recursive 2y ago
  Because they don't wear enough over the lifetime of the vehicle to require replacing.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago

If you want cars to be smaller, you're going to have to put an upper limit on the size of vehicles on public roadways. I think a lot of people would actually be receptive to smaller vehicles, but auto manufacturers have put virtually zero effort into a way that easily expands back-of-vehicle storage for grocery trips, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is, but popping out the rear seat and hauling it out of the car ain't it.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> you're going to have to put an upper limit on the size of vehicles on public roadways Tax based on weight.
camtarn 2y ago
Honda has 'Magic Seats' as a feature in a few of their cars, most notably the Fit/Jazz. These rear seats fold completely flat so you can treat the car as a very small van - my Jazz spends almost all its time with the seats folded, and I've been able to fit a remarkable amount of stuff into it. Sadly they've actually stopped putting them in some of their newer car lines (e.g. the Civic) which had them in previous model years.
nordsieck 2y ago
From what I understand, part of the problem is the chicken tax[1] that's made light trucks more expensive than they should be. And part of the problem is CAFE standards. It sounds like emissions requirements are set so tight for small trucks that manufacturers have given up on trying to make it work for small trucks. And as you point out, US consumers seem to love large vehicles. For a variety of reasons. For some the need is legitimate (they need to haul or tow big/heavy things). For some, they want to copy the first group. And for some, they want to feel safe, sharing the road with the other big vehicles. --- 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
kjkjadksj 2y ago
Subcompact hatchback is the solution you are looking for

pnw 2y ago

Hybrid's are not an ideal solution. The additional vehicle complexity is unnecessary and it extends our reliance on fossil fuel infrastructure. It's all the downsides of an ICE car with a slight boost in fuel efficiency. The reality is that most Americans would do fine with an EV but the inability of the incumbents to innovate on affordable EVs and the FUD in the marketplace is a big issue. The top issues in that survey you linked are basically price (fair), battery replacement (FUD) and then charging availability and range anxiety as equal third. Range anxiety is overblown given the vast majority of Americans drive less than 40 miles a day, yet somehow everyone seems to demand a vehicle capable of making 500 mile non-stop road trips.

HelloMcFly 2y ago
Until it's easier for me to charge my car, hybrids are indeed the ideal solution when accounting for the additional cost of installing an EV charger in the home. That's a huge "tax", especially when home charging is by far your only reliable option, especially so for the many, many of us with detached garages nowhere close to our home breaker box.
- pnw 2y ago
  Yes, that's an issue for 30% of people as shown in the survey.
foobarian 2y ago
I don't agree range anxiety is overblown. It's a real issue, having driven an EV for a year now. We may drive 50ish miles most days but not being able to go on long trips is a deal breaker; it forces us to keep a second car which is impractical for the vast majority of people.
- recursive 2y ago
  Why can't you go on long trips?
kube-system 2y ago
> The additional vehicle complexity is unnecessary The best selling hybrids on the market aren't simply ICE vehicles with extra stuff slapped on. Most series-parallel designs eliminate the need for many parts that an ICE car would have. For example, many hybrids don't have a starter, accessory belt, torque converter, or multi-ratio transmissions. Due to this, many hybrids have hundreds of fewer moving parts than comparable ICE vehicles.

maxdo 2y ago

Look at China, the leading market in EV 40%+ of sales are EV. You got decent EV's for $8k there. You will have the same in lagging US market. Hybrids are more complex. They will die once you have good and cheap enough battery immediately. In china they already selling cars that can go 600 miles on a single charge. Any range or any other concerns will die once that reach a mass market. You don't need to go to gas station, pay tips, expose yourself to security risks. Just charge at home, it's superior to anything including hybrids.

iamleppert 2y ago

Most people know someone by now who bought an EV and has suffered for it; be it a an expensive battery replacement, problems charging, getting stranded on the side of the road and having to be towed, having to rent a car to do any roadtrips without massive inconvenience and anxiety. Everyone I know who had an EV has ended up going back to regular ICE or Hybrid. For those who say they have no problems and love their electric car, I tell them: just wait. It's only a matter of time. Even most hybrids are not a good deal, when compared to a fuel efficient 4 cylinder. My Dad recently had to replace the battery in his Toyota Prius after only about 100,000 miles. He bought a refurbished battery and got it installed for ~$4k. Toyota wanted $6k for a car that is barely worth that (worthless with a dead battery). It failed about 6 months later, was replaced, before failing again. He ended up getting rid of the car because it wasn't worth it, and replaced it with an ICE Honda Civic. Meanwhile, I've owned my Honda Civic for over 10 years, and outside of regular maintenance, never had a problem with it. I couldn't imagine ever buying a hybrid or electric car.

recursive 2y ago
I know at least a dozen people who own EVs, some for over a decade. I doubt any of them will ever go back to ICE. In my two years of EV ownership, I've had fewer problems than I had with ICE, on average. This is all anecdotal, just like your stories.
EnergyAmy 2y ago
Those are just not problems. I've got an EV that has required no maintenance for 6 years, which is something that ICE cars can't achieve. I've taken very long road trips without issues, and have been able to charge off of outlets in the middle of nowhere with no gas stations nearby. I charge at home off of a regular outlet, and live where it gets very cold. The number of EVs I see driving around is steadily increasing. All of this, and the tech is only getting better. The anti-EV people are neo-Luddites. It doesn't really matter though, because technology marches on regardless. I will say that I would not want to be an ICE owner when we hit a tipping point and gas stations start closing because most people are driving EVs.
dagurp 2y ago
I don't know a single person who's regretted getting an EV. Battery replacements are not needed unless you own a first generation Nissan Leaf. There have been recalls but they happen all the time with fossil fuel vehicles as well.

kjksf 2y ago

And yet the best selling car last year, world-wide, was Tesla Model Y - a fully electric car, not a hybrid. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds: you need a gas engine AND a battery. It doesn't make sense economically. Things cost money and putting both engine and battery costs more that putting just one of those. People care about the price so in practice you end up with a car that has both gimped (cheaper) gas engine and gimped (cheaper) battery and a government subsidy to make it sense financially (for buyer). Not to mention that study after study found that environment benefits of plug-in hybrids have been greatly exaggerated i.e. in real life charging happens 2-3x less than the initial predictions. People buy them mostly because governments offer subsidies making them more attractive than similar gas cars and then don't charge them at all. Which also means that the battery in them is completely useless and it would be better if it wasn't there in the first place.

foobarian 2y ago
> People care about the price so in practice you end up with a car that has both gimped (cheaper) gas engine and gimped (cheaper) battery and a government subsidy to make it sense financially (for buyer). On the other hand this makes sense, because the vast majority of trips are short, so the gimped battery works just fine. But for the long trips the gas engine can fill in. It means one can own one car instead of two.
enragedcacti 2y ago
> And yet the best selling car last year, world-wide, was Tesla Model Y - a fully electric car, not a hybrid. Toyota sold almost twice as many hybrids as Tesla sold cars in 2023. Comparing a single model's sales is pointless, especially when Tesla carries so few models compared to most manufacturers. > Hybrids are the worst of both worlds: you need a gas engine AND a battery. Most hybrids use a dead simple power split transmission that replaces a complex automatic transmission as well as the alternator and starter. Most of the accessories move off of belts and get replaced with high-voltage electric components similar to an EV. Priuses are the most common taxi and Uber vehicle for a reason. They are extremely reliable and cost effective relative to ICE and even EVs depending on the relative cost of fuel. > It doesn't make sense economically. Things cost money and putting both engine and battery costs more that putting just one of those. The costs are fairly marginal, switching to the Hybrid model of the 2024 Corolla (no subsidy) costs $1450 and nets +15 combined MPG and 0-60 times within 0.2 seconds of one another. At +15 mpg and $3.50/gallon it pays itself off in 50k miles > Not to mention that study after study found that environment benefits of plug-in hybrids have been greatly exaggerated i.e. in real life charging happens 2-3x less than the initial predictions. IIRC this study was from corporate fleets which isn't representative of a consumer who seeks out a PHEV.