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The only thing these guys know is to make vehicles bigger and bigger. One day they wake up and will ask for public subsidies because Chinese manufacturers have

The only thing these guys know is to make vehicles bigger and bigger. One day they wake up and will ask for public subsidies because Chinese manufacturers have eaten their lunch.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago
Well, the other thing they know how to do is make a product that people actually want to buy. Not sure how Chinese manufacturers are going to be able to do anything to change that. There is a specific demographic who will buy ONLY these trucks for their personal use. They are rugged, reliable, and last forever with proper service.
- throwway120385 2y ago
  If the chinese enter the market with something sized more like a kei truck then I will buy one even if the electrical is total crap because it's the perfect form factor. As it is now I'm probably going to buy a van instead of a truck because trucks are totally impractical for actually hauling anything.
- AstroJetson 2y ago
  They are rugged, they make that trip to the grocery with ease, no pot hole will stop them. They last forever, or until the owner that gets a new truck every 4 years gets rid of it. Ford is about repeating sales, they don’t sell you a truck and think “Nice guy, hope they come back in 20 years to get a new one. It’s all about current profit. Remember how the US crushed millions of used cars to help the auto industry and destroyed poor peoples chances of an affordable car? I’ll bet it happens again very soon.
  - jtbayly 2y ago
    That should have been a huge scandal. I hope it doesn’t happen again, ever. Why do you think it will happen again, soon?
    - AstroJetson 2y ago
      Because Ford isn't building EV cars, they are focused on the Monster Pickup line. And that's going to end and they don't have a plan B. So they will / are jamming dollars into the C* level people, the end will come, they will go "We are too big to fail and Congress will help them out." They got a $6.9 billion loan in 2019 that still isn't paid and a more recent $9.2 billion to fund EV in 2023.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  > Well, the other thing they know how to do is make a product that people actually want to buy. That's the other way around, they are great at making people want to buy the products they make. They make trucks because the chicken tax makes foreign trucks and vans unattractive in the US. And the trucks grow bigger every year because it's easier to satisfy environmental regulations with bigger vehicles (since the goals depend on vehicle size). They then make really good propaganda^w marketing to make people want to buy those vehicles. If people only wanted rugged, reliable, long-lasting vehicles they would buy Toyota.
  - jtbayly 2y ago
    Toyota trucks are very popular. And big. I’m not sure what your point is.
    - wongarsu 2y ago
      In the best-selling vehicles of 2023 the most popular Toyota truck (the Toyota Tacoma) is only place 11, far behind the trucks from Ford, Chevrolet and RAM. And that trucks are that popular at all is already a symptom of the "issue". Most people who drive trucks would be served better by hatchback, or if you want a bigger front grill an SUV. But trucks are cooler, manlier, more American. Which isn't an idea people got on their own. Which isn't an idea people got on their own, it's carefully cultivated in the US.
bluejekyll 2y ago
This is already happening. See the recent tariffs on low cost Chinese EVs. If Americans really didn’t want EVs then there should be no need to protect the market from the cheaper Chinese brands, because nobody would be buying them.
- maxdo 2y ago
  With next wave of cheap ev's america will be forced to love it. They will just pay more compared to the rest of the world. Stuborn-tax.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    Why would America be forced to love it and forced to pay more for it? The Ford F-150 is most popular vehicle in the United States, followed by the Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram. It doesn't seem like Americans are falling over themselves to buy imported Chinese EVs.
    - kjkjadksj 2y ago
      California at least is trying to make all new cars sold be EV by 2035
      - nozzlegear 2y ago
        Good point, I hadn't considered state laws. It will be interesting to see if other states go the other direction. Iowa, where I live, has such heavy investment in ethanol that I wouldn't be surprised to see the legislature try to enact some kind of misguided ban on EV sales.
      - enragedcacti 2y ago
        *EV or PHEV by 2035
    - bluejekyll 2y ago
      There is no glut of Chinese EVs because of the tariffs, but it looks like they might work around that, “It’s a scenario that terrifies America’s auto industry. Chinese carmakers set up shop in Mexico to exploit North American trade rules. Once in place, they send ultra-low-priced electric vehicles streaming into the United States.” https://apnews.com/article/china-vehicles-mexico-evs-automakers-tariffs-f526c5e52b95b624bb4b15d2038e289a https://apnews.com/article/china-vehicles-mexico-evs-automak...
Amezarak 2y ago
They make bigger vehicles because people want bigger vehicles. I own a tiny (by US standards) car. It was discontinued by the manufacturer for lack of sales, which were indeed miserable for many years despite being a great car and very cheap. The story is the same across most of the other US manufacturers. I still drive it every day to work but for family trips I drive a much larger three-row SUV and it is better in basically every way except gas mileage, which thanks to being a hybrid is about the same. So I get where people are coming from. My conclusion has been people tend to buy as much car as they can possibly afford and often more.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jwells89 2y ago
  Customer demand is just one piece of the puzzle, though. People might not be buying as many small cars as they used to, but automakers also would prefer to sell you something big and fancy enough that chunky margin/markup is easier to justify — both by the manufacturer and by dealers. There's just not but so far the price on something like a Fit or a Yaris can be jacked up before prospective buyers just laugh at you and buy something else. So even discounting demand, automakers and dealers are incentivized to make big, expensive vehicles, which reduces the number of small models available, which in turn further reduces demand as would-be small car buyers can no longer find options that make the right tradeoffs for their situation. In other words, in some ways it's a self-reinforcing cycle that won't end absent external corrections.
- rglullis 2y ago
  > people want bigger vehicles. This is absolutely not true. The demand is manufactured. Car companies in the US are building bigger SUVs and trucks because they are classified different and have less strict emissions regulations.
  - EricE 2y ago
    Yup. Government regulations once again screwing those of us who prefer smaller vehicles. Looking at you, Chicken Tax!
patwolf 2y ago
To be fair, they're using it to build Super Duty trucks, which are big trucks typically used for actual work with no suitable EV alternative. So it seems more a case of using their manufacturing capacities efficiently rather than them saying "screw EVs, we'll build bigger ICE vehicles instead".
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  What are they doing with the old super duty plants? Still making super duties there too?
- afiori 2y ago
  > To be fair, they're using it to build Super Duty trucks, which are big trucks typically used for actual work Citation needed
  - kube-system 2y ago
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-is-adding-capacity-super-duty-trucks-are-seeing-surging-demand/ar-BB1qdc2n https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-is-adding-capacity... > Thursday, the auto maker announced a third North American assembly plant to meet commercial demand for F-series Super Duty trucks. > It’s another sign that Ford’s commercial business is healthy. Pro is Ford’s star business segment, earning $3 billion in operating profit in the first quarter, while the traditional car business saw a $900 million profit, and the Model e electric-vehicle business lost $1.3 billion. It is Ford's commercial segment that is really driving their success in selling these vehicles.
    - schmookeeg 2y ago
      I think parent wanted a citation that Super Duty trucks are typically used for work, and not for Brodozer hooning and yelling "yew" out of the window in a sleeveless shirt and with a plug of skoal. :)
      - kube-system 2y ago
kredd 2y ago
Consumers are willing to go into huge debts to buy the car they want. Anecdotal, but my closest friend works for a car dealership and the stories he tells every week are heartbreaking. From Ford/GM perspective, I’m assuming they’ve crunched the numbers, and realized trying to make a cheaper vehicle will not result in proper ROI. I’m not sure if they can ever compete with economies of scale as well, compared to Chinese hawks, as they just have so many more consumers even just internally. It’s going to be fun to watch the car-wars as we have allied countries like Australia that are buying up BYDs, so people can’t just call them “Chinese crap” forever. My bet is within 5 years US/Europe is going to rely on protectionism even more, as China puts more pressure on exports. It’s a huge industry with an enormous amount of jobs attached to it after all.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >My bet is within 5 years US/Europe is going to rely on protectionism even more That's a double edged sword as China will retaliate with tariffs on US and EU cars in China, and the Chinese market has been a huge moneymaker for the German companies, who now find themselves between a rock and a hard place. They can't outcompete Chinese EV makers on price in the EU market, but they also can't loose the Chinese market if retaliatory tarries would hit them. I'm focusing on Germany because the Germany economy is far more dependent on cars than the US economy where it's more of a vestigial tail compared to finance, services and tech. Also, tariffs are a poisoned chalice. Yes, they'll protect your industry locally on the short term, but long term, your industry will loose out on competitiveness on the global market where it lacks protectionism and will be decimated in the long run. My bet is that instead of a mutual assured destruction tarif wars, EU and Chinese companies will enter into partnerships where they share technology and factories, meaning of course the EU made Chinese EVs will be significantly more expensive than those sold abroad.
  - kredd 2y ago
    Great points, that could happen as well! I'm curious what would Chinese companies get from partnerships with German companies at this point though, as my knowledge is pretty limited in that sphere.
multimoon 2y ago
As someone very close to the car market this is just an incorrect assessment. You might want a small BEV, most Americans do not. Pickup trucks are still by far the best selling category of vehicle in America. Corporations are going to focus on what people want to buy, and right now that isn’t EVs. Several manufacturers tried it, they had aggressive timelines to convert their entire fleets - and they’ve almost all reversed course because the gas/hybrid offerings were far outselling their BEV options.
- ericjmorey 2y ago
  Dollar weighted people want trucks, e.i. people who want to spend more money on their personal vehicles want trucks. People who want to spend efficiently don't want trucks, they want what Honda and Toyota have been selling which is slowly converting to hybrid powered vehicles and to a lesser extent electric powered sedans and SUVs. Ford has no interest in the lower margin segments. So they are focused on trucks first and SUVs second.
  - multimoon 2y ago
    This is my point - Americans buy the “most car” their dollar gets them. If all you can/want to afford is a Corolla or a Civic, then that’s what you buy - but given two similarly priced cars where you have something smaller than a Corolla, unless it’s significantly cheaper people are going to choose the bigger Corolla.
Gibbon1 2y ago
If you look at light vehicle sales in the US they've been running at 17 million or so a year for 25 years. So yes the only way automakers can increase revenue in the US is by making cars and trucks more expensive. Because they can't increase unit volume. The issue the Chinese have is everyone not just the US is asking the question what in it for us having all the factories in China.

The only thing these guys know is to make vehicles bigger and bigger. One day they wake up and will ask for public subsidies because Chinese manufacturers have eaten their lunch.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago

Well, the other thing they know how to do is make a product that people actually want to buy. Not sure how Chinese manufacturers are going to be able to do anything to change that. There is a specific demographic who will buy ONLY these trucks for their personal use. They are rugged, reliable, and last forever with proper service.

throwway120385 2y ago
If the chinese enter the market with something sized more like a kei truck then I will buy one even if the electrical is total crap because it's the perfect form factor. As it is now I'm probably going to buy a van instead of a truck because trucks are totally impractical for actually hauling anything.
AstroJetson 2y ago
They are rugged, they make that trip to the grocery with ease, no pot hole will stop them. They last forever, or until the owner that gets a new truck every 4 years gets rid of it. Ford is about repeating sales, they don’t sell you a truck and think “Nice guy, hope they come back in 20 years to get a new one. It’s all about current profit. Remember how the US crushed millions of used cars to help the auto industry and destroyed poor peoples chances of an affordable car? I’ll bet it happens again very soon.
- jtbayly 2y ago
  That should have been a huge scandal. I hope it doesn’t happen again, ever. Why do you think it will happen again, soon?
  - AstroJetson 2y ago
    Because Ford isn't building EV cars, they are focused on the Monster Pickup line. And that's going to end and they don't have a plan B. So they will / are jamming dollars into the C* level people, the end will come, they will go "We are too big to fail and Congress will help them out." They got a $6.9 billion loan in 2019 that still isn't paid and a more recent $9.2 billion to fund EV in 2023.
wongarsu 2y ago
> Well, the other thing they know how to do is make a product that people actually want to buy. That's the other way around, they are great at making people want to buy the products they make. They make trucks because the chicken tax makes foreign trucks and vans unattractive in the US. And the trucks grow bigger every year because it's easier to satisfy environmental regulations with bigger vehicles (since the goals depend on vehicle size). They then make really good propaganda^w marketing to make people want to buy those vehicles. If people only wanted rugged, reliable, long-lasting vehicles they would buy Toyota.
- jtbayly 2y ago
  Toyota trucks are very popular. And big. I’m not sure what your point is.
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    In the best-selling vehicles of 2023 the most popular Toyota truck (the Toyota Tacoma) is only place 11, far behind the trucks from Ford, Chevrolet and RAM. And that trucks are that popular at all is already a symptom of the "issue". Most people who drive trucks would be served better by hatchback, or if you want a bigger front grill an SUV. But trucks are cooler, manlier, more American. Which isn't an idea people got on their own. Which isn't an idea people got on their own, it's carefully cultivated in the US.

bluejekyll 2y ago

This is already happening. See the recent tariffs on low cost Chinese EVs. If Americans really didn’t want EVs then there should be no need to protect the market from the cheaper Chinese brands, because nobody would be buying them.

maxdo 2y ago
With next wave of cheap ev's america will be forced to love it. They will just pay more compared to the rest of the world. Stuborn-tax.
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  Why would America be forced to love it and forced to pay more for it? The Ford F-150 is most popular vehicle in the United States, followed by the Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram. It doesn't seem like Americans are falling over themselves to buy imported Chinese EVs.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    California at least is trying to make all new cars sold be EV by 2035
    - nozzlegear 2y ago
      Good point, I hadn't considered state laws. It will be interesting to see if other states go the other direction. Iowa, where I live, has such heavy investment in ethanol that I wouldn't be surprised to see the legislature try to enact some kind of misguided ban on EV sales.
    - enragedcacti 2y ago
      *EV or PHEV by 2035
  - bluejekyll 2y ago
    There is no glut of Chinese EVs because of the tariffs, but it looks like they might work around that, “It’s a scenario that terrifies America’s auto industry. Chinese carmakers set up shop in Mexico to exploit North American trade rules. Once in place, they send ultra-low-priced electric vehicles streaming into the United States.” https://apnews.com/article/china-vehicles-mexico-evs-automakers-tariffs-f526c5e52b95b624bb4b15d2038e289a https://apnews.com/article/china-vehicles-mexico-evs-automak...

Amezarak 2y ago

They make bigger vehicles because people want bigger vehicles. I own a tiny (by US standards) car. It was discontinued by the manufacturer for lack of sales, which were indeed miserable for many years despite being a great car and very cheap. The story is the same across most of the other US manufacturers. I still drive it every day to work but for family trips I drive a much larger three-row SUV and it is better in basically every way except gas mileage, which thanks to being a hybrid is about the same. So I get where people are coming from. My conclusion has been people tend to buy as much car as they can possibly afford and often more.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jwells89 2y ago
Customer demand is just one piece of the puzzle, though. People might not be buying as many small cars as they used to, but automakers also would prefer to sell you something big and fancy enough that chunky margin/markup is easier to justify — both by the manufacturer and by dealers. There's just not but so far the price on something like a Fit or a Yaris can be jacked up before prospective buyers just laugh at you and buy something else. So even discounting demand, automakers and dealers are incentivized to make big, expensive vehicles, which reduces the number of small models available, which in turn further reduces demand as would-be small car buyers can no longer find options that make the right tradeoffs for their situation. In other words, in some ways it's a self-reinforcing cycle that won't end absent external corrections.
rglullis 2y ago
> people want bigger vehicles. This is absolutely not true. The demand is manufactured. Car companies in the US are building bigger SUVs and trucks because they are classified different and have less strict emissions regulations.
- EricE 2y ago
  Yup. Government regulations once again screwing those of us who prefer smaller vehicles. Looking at you, Chicken Tax!

patwolf 2y ago

To be fair, they're using it to build Super Duty trucks, which are big trucks typically used for actual work with no suitable EV alternative. So it seems more a case of using their manufacturing capacities efficiently rather than them saying "screw EVs, we'll build bigger ICE vehicles instead".

kjkjadksj 2y ago
What are they doing with the old super duty plants? Still making super duties there too?
afiori 2y ago
> To be fair, they're using it to build Super Duty trucks, which are big trucks typically used for actual work Citation needed
- kube-system 2y ago
  https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-is-adding-capacity-super-duty-trucks-are-seeing-surging-demand/ar-BB1qdc2n https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-is-adding-capacity... > Thursday, the auto maker announced a third North American assembly plant to meet commercial demand for F-series Super Duty trucks. > It’s another sign that Ford’s commercial business is healthy. Pro is Ford’s star business segment, earning $3 billion in operating profit in the first quarter, while the traditional car business saw a $900 million profit, and the Model e electric-vehicle business lost $1.3 billion. It is Ford's commercial segment that is really driving their success in selling these vehicles.
  - schmookeeg 2y ago
    I think parent wanted a citation that Super Duty trucks are typically used for work, and not for Brodozer hooning and yelling "yew" out of the window in a sleeveless shirt and with a plug of skoal. :)
    - kube-system 2y ago

kredd 2y ago

Consumers are willing to go into huge debts to buy the car they want. Anecdotal, but my closest friend works for a car dealership and the stories he tells every week are heartbreaking. From Ford/GM perspective, I’m assuming they’ve crunched the numbers, and realized trying to make a cheaper vehicle will not result in proper ROI. I’m not sure if they can ever compete with economies of scale as well, compared to Chinese hawks, as they just have so many more consumers even just internally. It’s going to be fun to watch the car-wars as we have allied countries like Australia that are buying up BYDs, so people can’t just call them “Chinese crap” forever. My bet is within 5 years US/Europe is going to rely on protectionism even more, as China puts more pressure on exports. It’s a huge industry with an enormous amount of jobs attached to it after all.

Rinzler89 2y ago
>My bet is within 5 years US/Europe is going to rely on protectionism even more That's a double edged sword as China will retaliate with tariffs on US and EU cars in China, and the Chinese market has been a huge moneymaker for the German companies, who now find themselves between a rock and a hard place. They can't outcompete Chinese EV makers on price in the EU market, but they also can't loose the Chinese market if retaliatory tarries would hit them. I'm focusing on Germany because the Germany economy is far more dependent on cars than the US economy where it's more of a vestigial tail compared to finance, services and tech. Also, tariffs are a poisoned chalice. Yes, they'll protect your industry locally on the short term, but long term, your industry will loose out on competitiveness on the global market where it lacks protectionism and will be decimated in the long run. My bet is that instead of a mutual assured destruction tarif wars, EU and Chinese companies will enter into partnerships where they share technology and factories, meaning of course the EU made Chinese EVs will be significantly more expensive than those sold abroad.
- kredd 2y ago
  Great points, that could happen as well! I'm curious what would Chinese companies get from partnerships with German companies at this point though, as my knowledge is pretty limited in that sphere.

multimoon 2y ago

As someone very close to the car market this is just an incorrect assessment. You might want a small BEV, most Americans do not. Pickup trucks are still by far the best selling category of vehicle in America. Corporations are going to focus on what people want to buy, and right now that isn’t EVs. Several manufacturers tried it, they had aggressive timelines to convert their entire fleets - and they’ve almost all reversed course because the gas/hybrid offerings were far outselling their BEV options.

ericjmorey 2y ago
Dollar weighted people want trucks, e.i. people who want to spend more money on their personal vehicles want trucks. People who want to spend efficiently don't want trucks, they want what Honda and Toyota have been selling which is slowly converting to hybrid powered vehicles and to a lesser extent electric powered sedans and SUVs. Ford has no interest in the lower margin segments. So they are focused on trucks first and SUVs second.
- multimoon 2y ago
  This is my point - Americans buy the “most car” their dollar gets them. If all you can/want to afford is a Corolla or a Civic, then that’s what you buy - but given two similarly priced cars where you have something smaller than a Corolla, unless it’s significantly cheaper people are going to choose the bigger Corolla.

Gibbon1 2y ago

If you look at light vehicle sales in the US they've been running at 17 million or so a year for 25 years. So yes the only way automakers can increase revenue in the US is by making cars and trucks more expensive. Because they can't increase unit volume. The issue the Chinese have is everyone not just the US is asking the question what in it for us having all the factories in China.