7 ms·

Do you see how Elon Musk behaves in real time? That was Steve Jobs in his day, but we didn't have social media, so we didn't get to see his tantrums. Both Jobs

Do you see how Elon Musk behaves in real time? That was Steve Jobs in his day, but we didn't have social media, so we didn't get to see his tantrums. Both Jobs and Musk were known for thinking very little of people outside their personal circles. It just shows that human beings are innately attracted to mythology and love to romanticize authoritative figures, even when those figures display sociopathic tendencies. Maybe that's why polls say people think less and less of democracy and more and more of autocracy all over the world. We can say these people are changing the world but we should not forget that they are not role models.

meroes 2y ago
I never saw Jobs promote conspiracies and racism.
- samtheprogram 2y ago
  Elon Musk promoted racism?
  - n4r9 2y ago
    Apparently he has a history of retweeting/replying to tweets that make dubious claims linking crime with race and how it's "misrepresented" by the media.
  - meroes 2y ago
    He’ll reply to known blatant racists on X with “interesting” and similar tactics.
sangnoir 2y ago
I'm sure if Jobs were alive to see the Cybertruck, he'd think that Musk has no taste.
delichon 2y ago
It's hard to consider Jobs as sociopathic in the large when he created so much social value. And it's hard to imagine that he would have been quite so effective if he were more agreeable. So I think it's reasonable to consider the kind of rudeness that gets big things done at the cost of hurt feelings as something other than pathological.
- paxcoder 2y ago
  If goodness is a necessary sacrifice for something, that something, whatever it may be, is not worth the sacrifice
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  > rudeness that gets big things done I think this is a myth, that major accomplishments require running roughshod over people. We also have a twisted idea of what "major accomplishments" are. Are Walmart and Amazon being supremely dominant in their industries, build on the back of wiping out much of small town America, and worker mistreatment, an "accomplishment"?
  - delichon 2y ago
    The iPhone was a major accomplishment. Its design was influenced by Jobs' ability to inform people when their work was not insanely great. Maybe he could have done that more gently. But lacking that rare talent it was a social good for him to do that anyway.
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      Yeah, not disagreeing with any of that. My contention is that it's not a _prerequisite_ to great accomplishments.
dagmx 2y ago
I think there’s a massive difference between Steve and Elon. Perhaps if Steve had social media , things would be different. But he never took to the news to denigrate entire groups of people based on their gender and sexuality. He never had any scandals for calling people pedophiles. When he denied science, he only did so personally. Afaik I can find no evidence of him trying to influence politics significantly. I’m not saying Steve was a saint by any means. However, the level of sociopathy one can ascribe to Steve Jobs is a minuscule fraction of that of Elons to the point I question the logic of anyone making such a vague general comparison.
spandrew 2y ago
Jobs' demanding personality and toxic managerial behaviour are well well well documented. Most of the documovies on him pay special attention to it. But he also did marvellous things for the advent of human-centric tech design that has been a boon for the regular people. An article or person is allowed to focus on his genius and invention without having to caveat them alongside his toxicity as well. This isn't intended to be an Art vs. Artist discussion.
- sourcepluck 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dannyobrien 2y ago
    I have to ask: when you say "what planet are you from?", do you find it impossible (or at least very hard) to model someone thinking what the poster said? I guess, more precisely, do you think that the average person -- not educated with comfortable background, just average or low income -- is much more likely to share your opinion, than that of Steve Jobs and Apple being broadly positive? My guess is that the majority people think of Jobs and Apple as being neutral to good, if they think of them at all. At the very least, lots of people who don't fit into your privileged categories of Jobs apologists, still don't think of him as bad. Do you think those people have been misled? Why do you think you have more insight into the truth than them?
    - sourcepluck 2y ago
      I don't find it impossible, and it requires no modelling. From my anecdotal experience, it does seem that most people would have a neutral or positive view of Jobs and Apple. When I said "what planet are you from", I meant simply that what the poster was saying (Jobs did "marvellous things for the advent of human-centric tech") isn't true on this planet. That's all. I do think people have been misled, yes, but I wouldn't have guessed that would be a controversial point? Advertising is the art and science of misleading people, and we've never been so saturated in ads, morning til night. And finally (you asked a lot of small questions) I think I've more insight into the matter because I've read books and articles about this issue and related issues. On the actual question of whether on this planet Apple (Microsoft, Google, etc) have been a "boon for regular people", the book that struck me the hardest was probably "La Fabrique du crétin digital" by Michel Desmurgets, but I don't know if there's an English translation. There's lots of good stuff from Cory Doctorow. Ivan Illich, Neil Postman, etc. In summary - I wasn't saying it's a popular or majority opinion. I was saying that it's really true though, and I was even implying that people working in tech-related fields have no excuse for lying to themselves about it (although they've tons of incentive to do so, of course).
joejohnson 2y ago
[flagged]
- leobg 2y ago
  I’d call that statement either grossly uninformed or a disrespect to the victims of fascism, say, under Stalin or Hitler. I can recommend a reading of “The Kindly Ones” to get a sense of what that word means.
- soperj 2y ago
  > sort of a bad father Dude denied his kid was his, for years.
geodel 2y ago
Well for lot of people the ones changing the world are role models. Gandhi was terrible to his family but he remain role model for billion people. > Maybe that's why polls say people think less and less of democracy.. It could also be because democracy did not deliver the things people who voted were expecting.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
One big difference is Jobs didn't push his assholery on the world by taking over the world's dominant* social media platform to shape it in his own fashion. I greatly admire what Elon did to push the world into EVs where no one had succeeded before him. I also think all that power and money has amplified his weaknesses and turned him into someone who I would never want to be in a position of power over me or others. Elon also strikes me as very immature compared to Jobs, like a spoiled little brat. * one could argue that would be FB but the nature of Twitter made it the platform of choice for anyone who wanted to broadcast their thoughts (or news) vs connect with a group of followers
dang 2y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

meroes 2y ago

I never saw Jobs promote conspiracies and racism.

samtheprogram 2y ago
Elon Musk promoted racism?
- n4r9 2y ago
  Apparently he has a history of retweeting/replying to tweets that make dubious claims linking crime with race and how it's "misrepresented" by the media.
- meroes 2y ago
  He’ll reply to known blatant racists on X with “interesting” and similar tactics.

sangnoir 2y ago

I'm sure if Jobs were alive to see the Cybertruck, he'd think that Musk has no taste.

delichon 2y ago

It's hard to consider Jobs as sociopathic in the large when he created so much social value. And it's hard to imagine that he would have been quite so effective if he were more agreeable. So I think it's reasonable to consider the kind of rudeness that gets big things done at the cost of hurt feelings as something other than pathological.

paxcoder 2y ago
If goodness is a necessary sacrifice for something, that something, whatever it may be, is not worth the sacrifice
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> rudeness that gets big things done I think this is a myth, that major accomplishments require running roughshod over people. We also have a twisted idea of what "major accomplishments" are. Are Walmart and Amazon being supremely dominant in their industries, build on the back of wiping out much of small town America, and worker mistreatment, an "accomplishment"?
- delichon 2y ago
  The iPhone was a major accomplishment. Its design was influenced by Jobs' ability to inform people when their work was not insanely great. Maybe he could have done that more gently. But lacking that rare talent it was a social good for him to do that anyway.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Yeah, not disagreeing with any of that. My contention is that it's not a _prerequisite_ to great accomplishments.

dagmx 2y ago

I think there’s a massive difference between Steve and Elon. Perhaps if Steve had social media , things would be different. But he never took to the news to denigrate entire groups of people based on their gender and sexuality. He never had any scandals for calling people pedophiles. When he denied science, he only did so personally. Afaik I can find no evidence of him trying to influence politics significantly. I’m not saying Steve was a saint by any means. However, the level of sociopathy one can ascribe to Steve Jobs is a minuscule fraction of that of Elons to the point I question the logic of anyone making such a vague general comparison.

spandrew 2y ago

Jobs' demanding personality and toxic managerial behaviour are well well well documented. Most of the documovies on him pay special attention to it. But he also did marvellous things for the advent of human-centric tech design that has been a boon for the regular people. An article or person is allowed to focus on his genius and invention without having to caveat them alongside his toxicity as well. This isn't intended to be an Art vs. Artist discussion.

sourcepluck 2y ago
[flagged]
- dannyobrien 2y ago
  I have to ask: when you say "what planet are you from?", do you find it impossible (or at least very hard) to model someone thinking what the poster said? I guess, more precisely, do you think that the average person -- not educated with comfortable background, just average or low income -- is much more likely to share your opinion, than that of Steve Jobs and Apple being broadly positive? My guess is that the majority people think of Jobs and Apple as being neutral to good, if they think of them at all. At the very least, lots of people who don't fit into your privileged categories of Jobs apologists, still don't think of him as bad. Do you think those people have been misled? Why do you think you have more insight into the truth than them?
  - sourcepluck 2y ago
    I don't find it impossible, and it requires no modelling. From my anecdotal experience, it does seem that most people would have a neutral or positive view of Jobs and Apple. When I said "what planet are you from", I meant simply that what the poster was saying (Jobs did "marvellous things for the advent of human-centric tech") isn't true on this planet. That's all. I do think people have been misled, yes, but I wouldn't have guessed that would be a controversial point? Advertising is the art and science of misleading people, and we've never been so saturated in ads, morning til night. And finally (you asked a lot of small questions) I think I've more insight into the matter because I've read books and articles about this issue and related issues. On the actual question of whether on this planet Apple (Microsoft, Google, etc) have been a "boon for regular people", the book that struck me the hardest was probably "La Fabrique du crétin digital" by Michel Desmurgets, but I don't know if there's an English translation. There's lots of good stuff from Cory Doctorow. Ivan Illich, Neil Postman, etc. In summary - I wasn't saying it's a popular or majority opinion. I was saying that it's really true though, and I was even implying that people working in tech-related fields have no excuse for lying to themselves about it (although they've tons of incentive to do so, of course).

joejohnson 2y ago

[flagged]

leobg 2y ago
I’d call that statement either grossly uninformed or a disrespect to the victims of fascism, say, under Stalin or Hitler. I can recommend a reading of “The Kindly Ones” to get a sense of what that word means.
soperj 2y ago
> sort of a bad father Dude denied his kid was his, for years.

geodel 2y ago

Well for lot of people the ones changing the world are role models. Gandhi was terrible to his family but he remain role model for billion people. > Maybe that's why polls say people think less and less of democracy.. It could also be because democracy did not deliver the things people who voted were expecting.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

One big difference is Jobs didn't push his assholery on the world by taking over the world's dominant* social media platform to shape it in his own fashion. I greatly admire what Elon did to push the world into EVs where no one had succeeded before him. I also think all that power and money has amplified his weaknesses and turned him into someone who I would never want to be in a position of power over me or others. Elon also strikes me as very immature compared to Jobs, like a spoiled little brat. * one could argue that would be FB but the nature of Twitter made it the platform of choice for anyone who wanted to broadcast their thoughts (or news) vs connect with a group of followers

dang 2y ago

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html