6 ms·

Ask HN: Why is Apple ripping of European users? 1€ ≠ 1$

74 points by ssn 14y ago

Anybody can explain this strange policy followed by Apple in their stores?

pktm 14y ago
If I had to guess (and I guess I don't /have/ to), I'd say it's strictly psychological pricing, and is not intended to reflect some sort of idealized exchange rate or the like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pricing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pricing
- AnthonBerg 14y ago
  Agreed. I think it's not just that though - there's the sales tax and the extra warranty mentioned elsewhere in thread, plus there's a bit more overhead of doing business in Europe. More languages, different rules, etc. Adding all of that up, I can totally understand that Apple just slap on the same EUR/USD amount and call it a day.
- lamby 14y ago
  Not forgetting that things are priced by what people will pay for them..
jgrahamc 14y ago
I don't think it's that strange. Let's compare the cost of the same MacBook Air in the US and France. 1. MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB in US is $999. 2. MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB in France is €1,049 3. $1 = €0.80 at the current time. So you might think the MacBook Air should be €800 (999 * 0.80). So why it is €249 more? France levies 19.6% TVA (sales tax) on goods and the tax is included in the display price; the US levies sales taxes by state and these are not shown in the displayed prices (sales tax calculated based on destination). So, what you need to compare is the pre-tax price on both machine. The pre-tax price of the MacBook Air in France is €877. Thus Apple is charging €77 more for the MacBook Air in France than in the US. The issue is tax rates not Apple. If you look at the UK you'll find that 4. MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB is £849 5. $1 = £0.65 So, the £ equivalent of the $999 machine is £650. UK VAT (sales tax) is 20% and thus the pre-tax price of the machine is £707. So Apple is charging £57 more in the UK than in the US.
- davidw 14y ago
  > US levies sales taxes by state Or, in the cases of Oregon and New Hampshire, does not levy it at at all.
- toyg 14y ago
  Although not as massive as it looks in the first place, there is still a discrepancy. The new MBP-Retina top config is 2799 USD -> 1805 GBP. In the UK store, it's 2299 GBP, less 20% vat -> 1916 GBP. So they're taking more than a 100 quid extra from each UK customer, "just because".
  - kolinko 14y ago
    Well, don't forget our lovely European regulations. The costs of hiring employees and handling business in Europe is higher than in US if I'm not mistaken. Finally, I'd guess that Apple pays its contractors in USD. So if today 1 USD = 0.8 EUR, Apple needs to consider the fact that tomorrow it may be 1 USD = 0.9 EUR, and the price needs to reflect this scenario as well (they cannot change the price every single month to reflect the current USD/EUR conversion ratios). These are details, but add them together, and you'll arrive at that 10% price difference (I guess)
    - ralfn 14y ago
      The european regulations are cheap compared to the legal risks of operating in the states. So, thats not it. Exchange rate? You keep assuming prices are based on costs. They are not. They are based on profit. So, when the population in a country has more money to spent, or better but, there where the median, rather than the average, income is the highest, the prices will be too. So, its cheap in the US because americans are generally more poor, except for a few that throw the average. Off course, "poor" is a very relative concept in this regard. Income inequality leads to lower prices, and lower margins.
      - davidw 14y ago
        The data don't really seem to support that view of things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income
bdfh42 14y ago
Don't forget sales taxes as well. Depending upon where you are you are probably paying something like 20% VAT (TAV or whatever) - quoted in the consumer price. In the USA, they have the annoying habit of excluding sales tax (presumably on the grounds that it varies wildly from place to place) and that is only added at the checkout.
virtualritz 14y ago
In Europe you are forced to give your customer 2 years of warranty on certain products. E.g. computer hardware or electronics. Apple refused to in the past (and still had their crazy EUR prices then). But now, after being dragged to court about it in Italy, and loosing, they at least have a good reason to charge more in Europe. ;) This is the case for most vendors. E.g. my Panasonic GH2 camera did cost a bit more in Europe than it would have in the US. But I get 24 months of warranty. See: http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/apple-increases-product-warranty-to-2-years-across-europe-2012042/ http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/apple-increases-product-w... http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/
- maigret 14y ago
  But this 1$ = 1€ rule has been there for much more time. This can't be the main reason. As another poster wrote, I think the reason is rather "because they can". They may have charged a premium back in the 80s or 90s and just kept it because it worked.
  - virtualritz 14y ago
    As I wrote, they did have crazy EUR prices before, compared to USD. When you ask any sales rep. of any big brand in Europe about this, they always use the "24 months warranty vs 12 months elsewhere" excuse. I'd never buy anything from Apple, so I don't know what excuse they used, being that they illegally dodged the warranty in the past. All I am saying is that they now have both a good excuse as well as a good reason. Anything mechanical is heaps more likely to fail after 24 months than it is after 12.
    - toyg 14y ago
      The 24-months legislation was introduced only recently. IT companies have had these prices for a long time. It's just that multinational sellers will always ask for the maximum price the specific market can bear, regardless of costs.
      - 14y ago
wisty 14y ago
In Australia, it's called "The Australia Tax". Partly, selling into another country is a bit of a headache. That's one reason why US businesses can do so well - they only need to succeed in a single jurisdiction and they'll make a lot of money. Yes, there's different state laws, but pretty much all countries have annoying state laws, and not all countries are as lucrative a market as California alone.
- maigret 14y ago
  This is why there is the Euro also ;) Still missing a big manufacturer in there tho.
  - netcan 14y ago
    Theoretically, but setting up a business in Greece doesn't get you the same degree of market access to the EU as setting up a business in New Mexico gets you to the US. You still have to deal with a lot of very different sovereign states, languages and mentalities. A Swedish customer is not going to feel much different about dealing with Greek business than dealing with a Russian one. Imagine you want to start a business selling your own brand of briefcases. In the US, you can set yourself up to supply to the whole US (almost) as easily as you can to deal with your local state. Try organizing shipping, sales taxes, customer service etc. for all Europe and you'll probably decide to start with one or two countries.
    - icebraining 14y ago
      As a citizen of a country in the EU, I certainly feel different about dealing with a Greek business than a Russian one. For one, I know they are required to provide me with a two year warranty by law. Likewise, there are other community directives that I know Greece was required to implement and that apply to them. I also feel more confident about my ability to influence consumer protection entities in case something goes wrong, 'though I'm not sure if that's actually true.
      - tehwalrus 14y ago
Nomon 14y ago
The new retina display MBP US starting price 2199$ == 1757€. The new retina display MBP FI starting price 2349€ == 2938$ Difference of 739$ or 590€ feels quite substantial.
ksec 14y ago
Apart from Tax, there is also the problem with fluctuation of exchange rate. Then there are operating cost and other sorts of things. There is still quite a margin, but same type of Electronics devices would have cost more in UK compare to US even without the tax difference. So it is not really a Apple thing at all.
sgift 14y ago
To make it short: Because they can. As others have pointed out there are taxes, regulations and so on, but the main reason (in my opinion) is that they still make a very good profit in Europe, so why should they reduce prices? Apple is a business and businesses will do almost anything to make more profit (that's the reason they exist, nothing wrong here). p.s.: Steam has a similar policy and one could note that Steam and Apple share a common trait: No real alternative.
- Kudos 14y ago
  That is not a Steam policy, that is a policy of publishers who distribute via Steam. If you look at Valve's own game pricing, you will see the euro and dollar are almost on parity when you account for sales tax.
  - sgift 14y ago
    If I remember correctly you could buy with dollars at Steam as an European customer until one year ago, since then this isn't possible anymore. Was this change forced by the publishers? Anyway, thanks for the hint. Pricing of Valve games is indeed near parity, so you are probably correct regarding publishers/Steam.
patio11 14y ago
Europe is ripping off Apple customers, for values of "ripping off" which mean "more or less listening to their expressed preferences that certain favored goods cost nothing at the margin and everything else costs a lot more."
greyman 14y ago
It's because of two years warranty, higher taxes, toll, and for more expensive items, smaller number of sold items. It's not fair you singled-out Apple, since this is true for several gadgets I bought, software, or for example more expensive Canon lenses. It's not Apple specific thing.
- Terretta 14y ago
  My friend from the UK comes to the US to buy sports cars. His wife comes with him to buy clothes. While here, they also pick up iPhones. Not see what makes this a particularly Apple issue.
clneagu 14y ago
It's simpler than that. They do it because they can. Apple could charge allot less for everything they sell but they don't just because they can get away with it. I'm sure nobody here really believes that the difference in price between countries has anything to do with keeping the profit margin the same everywhere :)
- nodata 14y ago
  If the difference was high enough, people would import.
  - jakeonthemove 14y ago
    Most people don't want to deal with the extra waiting time and warranty issues to save $100-200, though...
ricardobeat 14y ago
I feel obliged to repost this. Updated prices in Brazil: Air 11": R$2699 -> R$3699 (1849 USD) MBP 13": R$3599 -> R$3999 (2000 USD) New MBP: R$9999 (4500 USD - WHAT??) New MBP maxed out: R$15973 (~8000 USD...) Import tax is 60% for individuals, around 40%, maybe less for importers. $2199 * 1.4 * 2.06 (today's USD, predicted to go < 1.90) = R$6340. How 2199 turns into 9999 (4.5x), or 2799 into 16000 (5.71x) is a mystery. Now, what were you saying about being ripped off? [edit] just for kicks I maxed out a Mac Pro: R$ 48.959,00, or 1/4 of a nice brand-new apartment.
- swah 14y ago
  Could also compare to car prices or average monthly income... At least if we could buy the used ones that will appear on eBay... We do have AWS in Brazil now, though.
  - personlurking 14y ago
    If, for some reason, you are using AWS as shorthand for Amazon's general site, they haven't landed here yet, but I'm very interested to see their entrance into the market and how they perform against Ponto Frio, Submarino, MercadoLivre, etc. Brazil really needs centralized sites (Amazon, CL, etc) because having to check dozens of sites and services just to maybe find something similar to what you need, it can get tedious...and I'm sure I'm not the only one. At least there's Estante Virtual for used books. That's a great service. As long as we're on the subject, it'd be really nice if there was a way for non-Brazilians to buy things online here. This would be solved if PayPal upped their marketing and really made themselves known on the Brazilian market.
    - swah 14y ago
      No, I mean't the webservices. If Amazon came to Brazil I really wish they'd disrupt the market in terms of customer service. Americanas/Submarino are lousy in customer service sometimes. Estante Virtual is really great - the moment I found out about them I stopped going downtown to hunt for books (the good thing is that they're just "forcing" owners to index their collections, and they get to be the middle man).
mkup 14y ago
It's not Apple ripping off users, it's a price of state-sponsored healthcare and education. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
- icebraining 14y ago
  As opposed to the $769 Billion the US Federal government spends on Medicare, Medicaid, and CHIP ($2500 per capita, way more than e.g. France). And of course, the US doesn't have state-sponsored education, it's all private, right?
- rmc 14y ago
  I cannot see how governments spending money on education and hospitals means that Apple prices are higher?! (Unless you're talking about higher sales tax/VAT?)
  - mkup 14y ago
    Yes, it's exactly what I'm saying: retail prices in Europe include VAT and it's about 20-25%, same as difference between the value of one dollar and one euro. And, in general, taxes are higher in Europe because of higher government spendings.
jwildeboer 14y ago
In Europe Apple must give 2 years of warranty. There was a recent court decision on that in Italy. That is additional cost that reflects also in the price.
- Argorak 14y ago
  The court decision was about Apple not mentioning this in the prospectus of their support plans. They always followed the two years warranty rule. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/apple_italy/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/apple_italy/
- dante_dev 14y ago
  yes, but prices are raised from years, also when apple offered 1 year of warranty.
icegreentea 14y ago
Just to echo the sentiments here, it's certainly partly just because they can. If you want a hilarious example, look at Canada. I'm going to use Lenovo here as an example (but applies equally to other retailers). Baseline T420 on the US site? $1365.00. Baseline T420 in Canada? $1520.00. The exchange rate? Been within 5% of parity (either direction) for the last several years. Taxes? Canadian sale prices must be shown pre-tax (just like in the US). Supply chain? Practically the same thing. I ordered a T400 several years ago, and watched it get shipped from China to Alaska to their depot in Kentucky, and then trucked up to Toronto. I guess there might be some problems with the Made in China part (doesn't completely fall under NAFTA), but I honestly can't figure out the tarrif /import duty laws. But the point is that US prices almost always seem lower =/
- jakeonthemove 14y ago
  IT IS lower! I've been buying stuff from the US for years now - even accounting for VAT, certain IT products are cheaper, not to mention there are a lot of products you can only find in the US or online...
cientifico 14y ago
Because they can! The good price is the maximum price the client will pay for the service/product. As long as the users buy, they are going to continue this way.
- gm 14y ago
  I support this argument. Not sure why the downvotes, but it's the most truthful answer in this set of comments. Cheers to you sir, just because people don't like the truth does not make it any less truthful.
swah 14y ago
Will folks that like to use external monitors buy the MBP Retina?
Semaphor 14y ago
Have you looked at the prices for the Aeron Chair? Amazon.com: around $700 Amazon.de: the cheapest offer is 1.298,99€ (that's around 1,624.16) That's some markup there…
auberonx 14y ago
The first post by jgrahamc sums it all up nicely. On the additional 77 EUR Apple charges in Europe, one may have to consider strikter recycling laws. As far as I know, the cost of recycling is already charged at the time of purchase of an electronic product in Europe. That may, at least in part, explain the 77 EUR margin.
deleted 14y ago
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jakeonthemove 14y ago
Yeah, pretty much because they can. The average buyer doesn't compare USD to EURO - they just see the price in EURO and it seems normal. Keep in mind that the salaries are also similar in both countries USD=EURO (so technically US workers are paid less if you convert). Running a company in the EU is also harder than the US, at least for smaller businesses and startups - that may account for something...
- mjwalshe 14y ago
  Not in the UK from it tech and engineeing jobs our pay is much lower compared to SV and housing costs a lot more. The only advatage we have is only paying 12% for NHS etc instead of 20%+ just for health insurance.
  - jakeonthemove 14y ago
    I was talking more about the mainland - Germany, Netherlands and Belgium to be more specific... But you can't really compare anything with the Silicon Valley directly - IT and engineering jobs are present all over the US, and they pay less than SV companies and startups, too...
    - mjwalshe 14y ago
      well going from UK to Europe "Engineers" are MUCH MUCH Higher status jobs. The wife of the Number 2 at BT labs (you know the place that desigend and built Colossus) once got asked what sort of cars her husband worked on :-( And yes they did think he was a car mechanic.
mlitwiniuk 14y ago
Summing it up - EU prices have VAT included and exchange rate is best possible for Apple in long term perspective. But correct me if I'm wrong - if you buy Macbook in Apple store in US their adding some kind of local tax, right? Also - if you're running a company in EU you can refund overpaid VAT, right? So the only difference is, that currency exchange rate is worst possible.
phamilton 14y ago
Why is McDonalds ripping off European customers? In my somewhat limited experience (3 years in Belgium and 2 in Sweden), the only good that has anything to do with the exchange rate is the dollar itself. For everything else, $1 ~= 1 euro ~= 10 SEK ~= 1 pound. Look at the cost of a cheese burger at McDonalds.

74 points by ssn 14y ago

Anybody can explain this strange policy followed by Apple in their stores?

pktm 14y ago

If I had to guess (and I guess I don't /have/ to), I'd say it's strictly psychological pricing, and is not intended to reflect some sort of idealized exchange rate or the like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pricing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pricing

AnthonBerg 14y ago
Agreed. I think it's not just that though - there's the sales tax and the extra warranty mentioned elsewhere in thread, plus there's a bit more overhead of doing business in Europe. More languages, different rules, etc. Adding all of that up, I can totally understand that Apple just slap on the same EUR/USD amount and call it a day.
lamby 14y ago
Not forgetting that things are priced by what people will pay for them..

jgrahamc 14y ago

I don't think it's that strange. Let's compare the cost of the same MacBook Air in the US and France. 1. MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB in US is $999. 2. MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB in France is €1,049 3. $1 = €0.80 at the current time. So you might think the MacBook Air should be €800 (999 * 0.80). So why it is €249 more? France levies 19.6% TVA (sales tax) on goods and the tax is included in the display price; the US levies sales taxes by state and these are not shown in the displayed prices (sales tax calculated based on destination). So, what you need to compare is the pre-tax price on both machine. The pre-tax price of the MacBook Air in France is €877. Thus Apple is charging €77 more for the MacBook Air in France than in the US. The issue is tax rates not Apple. If you look at the UK you'll find that 4. MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB is £849 5. $1 = £0.65 So, the £ equivalent of the $999 machine is £650. UK VAT (sales tax) is 20% and thus the pre-tax price of the machine is £707. So Apple is charging £57 more in the UK than in the US.

davidw 14y ago
> US levies sales taxes by state Or, in the cases of Oregon and New Hampshire, does not levy it at at all.
toyg 14y ago
Although not as massive as it looks in the first place, there is still a discrepancy. The new MBP-Retina top config is 2799 USD -> 1805 GBP. In the UK store, it's 2299 GBP, less 20% vat -> 1916 GBP. So they're taking more than a 100 quid extra from each UK customer, "just because".
- kolinko 14y ago
  Well, don't forget our lovely European regulations. The costs of hiring employees and handling business in Europe is higher than in US if I'm not mistaken. Finally, I'd guess that Apple pays its contractors in USD. So if today 1 USD = 0.8 EUR, Apple needs to consider the fact that tomorrow it may be 1 USD = 0.9 EUR, and the price needs to reflect this scenario as well (they cannot change the price every single month to reflect the current USD/EUR conversion ratios). These are details, but add them together, and you'll arrive at that 10% price difference (I guess)
  - ralfn 14y ago
    The european regulations are cheap compared to the legal risks of operating in the states. So, thats not it. Exchange rate? You keep assuming prices are based on costs. They are not. They are based on profit. So, when the population in a country has more money to spent, or better but, there where the median, rather than the average, income is the highest, the prices will be too. So, its cheap in the US because americans are generally more poor, except for a few that throw the average. Off course, "poor" is a very relative concept in this regard. Income inequality leads to lower prices, and lower margins.
    - davidw 14y ago
      The data don't really seem to support that view of things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

bdfh42 14y ago

Don't forget sales taxes as well. Depending upon where you are you are probably paying something like 20% VAT (TAV or whatever) - quoted in the consumer price. In the USA, they have the annoying habit of excluding sales tax (presumably on the grounds that it varies wildly from place to place) and that is only added at the checkout.

virtualritz 14y ago

In Europe you are forced to give your customer 2 years of warranty on certain products. E.g. computer hardware or electronics. Apple refused to in the past (and still had their crazy EUR prices then). But now, after being dragged to court about it in Italy, and loosing, they at least have a good reason to charge more in Europe. ;) This is the case for most vendors. E.g. my Panasonic GH2 camera did cost a bit more in Europe than it would have in the US. But I get 24 months of warranty. See: http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/apple-increases-product-warranty-to-2-years-across-europe-2012042/ http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/apple-increases-product-w... http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

maigret 14y ago
But this 1$ = 1€ rule has been there for much more time. This can't be the main reason. As another poster wrote, I think the reason is rather "because they can". They may have charged a premium back in the 80s or 90s and just kept it because it worked.
- virtualritz 14y ago
  As I wrote, they did have crazy EUR prices before, compared to USD. When you ask any sales rep. of any big brand in Europe about this, they always use the "24 months warranty vs 12 months elsewhere" excuse. I'd never buy anything from Apple, so I don't know what excuse they used, being that they illegally dodged the warranty in the past. All I am saying is that they now have both a good excuse as well as a good reason. Anything mechanical is heaps more likely to fail after 24 months than it is after 12.
  - toyg 14y ago
    The 24-months legislation was introduced only recently. IT companies have had these prices for a long time. It's just that multinational sellers will always ask for the maximum price the specific market can bear, regardless of costs.
    - 14y ago

wisty 14y ago

In Australia, it's called "The Australia Tax". Partly, selling into another country is a bit of a headache. That's one reason why US businesses can do so well - they only need to succeed in a single jurisdiction and they'll make a lot of money. Yes, there's different state laws, but pretty much all countries have annoying state laws, and not all countries are as lucrative a market as California alone.

maigret 14y ago
This is why there is the Euro also ;) Still missing a big manufacturer in there tho.
- netcan 14y ago
  Theoretically, but setting up a business in Greece doesn't get you the same degree of market access to the EU as setting up a business in New Mexico gets you to the US. You still have to deal with a lot of very different sovereign states, languages and mentalities. A Swedish customer is not going to feel much different about dealing with Greek business than dealing with a Russian one. Imagine you want to start a business selling your own brand of briefcases. In the US, you can set yourself up to supply to the whole US (almost) as easily as you can to deal with your local state. Try organizing shipping, sales taxes, customer service etc. for all Europe and you'll probably decide to start with one or two countries.
  - icebraining 14y ago
    As a citizen of a country in the EU, I certainly feel different about dealing with a Greek business than a Russian one. For one, I know they are required to provide me with a two year warranty by law. Likewise, there are other community directives that I know Greece was required to implement and that apply to them. I also feel more confident about my ability to influence consumer protection entities in case something goes wrong, 'though I'm not sure if that's actually true.
    - tehwalrus 14y ago

Nomon 14y ago

The new retina display MBP US starting price 2199$ == 1757€. The new retina display MBP FI starting price 2349€ == 2938$ Difference of 739$ or 590€ feels quite substantial.

ksec 14y ago

Apart from Tax, there is also the problem with fluctuation of exchange rate. Then there are operating cost and other sorts of things. There is still quite a margin, but same type of Electronics devices would have cost more in UK compare to US even without the tax difference. So it is not really a Apple thing at all.

sgift 14y ago

To make it short: Because they can. As others have pointed out there are taxes, regulations and so on, but the main reason (in my opinion) is that they still make a very good profit in Europe, so why should they reduce prices? Apple is a business and businesses will do almost anything to make more profit (that's the reason they exist, nothing wrong here). p.s.: Steam has a similar policy and one could note that Steam and Apple share a common trait: No real alternative.

Kudos 14y ago
That is not a Steam policy, that is a policy of publishers who distribute via Steam. If you look at Valve's own game pricing, you will see the euro and dollar are almost on parity when you account for sales tax.
- sgift 14y ago
  If I remember correctly you could buy with dollars at Steam as an European customer until one year ago, since then this isn't possible anymore. Was this change forced by the publishers? Anyway, thanks for the hint. Pricing of Valve games is indeed near parity, so you are probably correct regarding publishers/Steam.

patio11 14y ago

Europe is ripping off Apple customers, for values of "ripping off" which mean "more or less listening to their expressed preferences that certain favored goods cost nothing at the margin and everything else costs a lot more."

greyman 14y ago

It's because of two years warranty, higher taxes, toll, and for more expensive items, smaller number of sold items. It's not fair you singled-out Apple, since this is true for several gadgets I bought, software, or for example more expensive Canon lenses. It's not Apple specific thing.

Terretta 14y ago
My friend from the UK comes to the US to buy sports cars. His wife comes with him to buy clothes. While here, they also pick up iPhones. Not see what makes this a particularly Apple issue.

clneagu 14y ago

It's simpler than that. They do it because they can. Apple could charge allot less for everything they sell but they don't just because they can get away with it. I'm sure nobody here really believes that the difference in price between countries has anything to do with keeping the profit margin the same everywhere :)

nodata 14y ago
If the difference was high enough, people would import.
- jakeonthemove 14y ago
  Most people don't want to deal with the extra waiting time and warranty issues to save $100-200, though...

ricardobeat 14y ago

I feel obliged to repost this. Updated prices in Brazil: Air 11": R$2699 -> R$3699 (1849 USD) MBP 13": R$3599 -> R$3999 (2000 USD) New MBP: R$9999 (4500 USD - WHAT??) New MBP maxed out: R$15973 (~8000 USD...) Import tax is 60% for individuals, around 40%, maybe less for importers. $2199 * 1.4 * 2.06 (today's USD, predicted to go < 1.90) = R$6340. How 2199 turns into 9999 (4.5x), or 2799 into 16000 (5.71x) is a mystery. Now, what were you saying about being ripped off? [edit] just for kicks I maxed out a Mac Pro: R$ 48.959,00, or 1/4 of a nice brand-new apartment.

swah 14y ago
Could also compare to car prices or average monthly income... At least if we could buy the used ones that will appear on eBay... We do have AWS in Brazil now, though.
- personlurking 14y ago
  If, for some reason, you are using AWS as shorthand for Amazon's general site, they haven't landed here yet, but I'm very interested to see their entrance into the market and how they perform against Ponto Frio, Submarino, MercadoLivre, etc. Brazil really needs centralized sites (Amazon, CL, etc) because having to check dozens of sites and services just to maybe find something similar to what you need, it can get tedious...and I'm sure I'm not the only one. At least there's Estante Virtual for used books. That's a great service. As long as we're on the subject, it'd be really nice if there was a way for non-Brazilians to buy things online here. This would be solved if PayPal upped their marketing and really made themselves known on the Brazilian market.
  - swah 14y ago
    No, I mean't the webservices. If Amazon came to Brazil I really wish they'd disrupt the market in terms of customer service. Americanas/Submarino are lousy in customer service sometimes. Estante Virtual is really great - the moment I found out about them I stopped going downtown to hunt for books (the good thing is that they're just "forcing" owners to index their collections, and they get to be the middle man).

mkup 14y ago

It's not Apple ripping off users, it's a price of state-sponsored healthcare and education. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

icebraining 14y ago
As opposed to the $769 Billion the US Federal government spends on Medicare, Medicaid, and CHIP ($2500 per capita, way more than e.g. France). And of course, the US doesn't have state-sponsored education, it's all private, right?
rmc 14y ago
I cannot see how governments spending money on education and hospitals means that Apple prices are higher?! (Unless you're talking about higher sales tax/VAT?)
- mkup 14y ago
  Yes, it's exactly what I'm saying: retail prices in Europe include VAT and it's about 20-25%, same as difference between the value of one dollar and one euro. And, in general, taxes are higher in Europe because of higher government spendings.

jwildeboer 14y ago

In Europe Apple must give 2 years of warranty. There was a recent court decision on that in Italy. That is additional cost that reflects also in the price.

Argorak 14y ago
The court decision was about Apple not mentioning this in the prospectus of their support plans. They always followed the two years warranty rule. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/apple_italy/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/apple_italy/
dante_dev 14y ago
yes, but prices are raised from years, also when apple offered 1 year of warranty.

icegreentea 14y ago

Just to echo the sentiments here, it's certainly partly just because they can. If you want a hilarious example, look at Canada. I'm going to use Lenovo here as an example (but applies equally to other retailers). Baseline T420 on the US site? $1365.00. Baseline T420 in Canada? $1520.00. The exchange rate? Been within 5% of parity (either direction) for the last several years. Taxes? Canadian sale prices must be shown pre-tax (just like in the US). Supply chain? Practically the same thing. I ordered a T400 several years ago, and watched it get shipped from China to Alaska to their depot in Kentucky, and then trucked up to Toronto. I guess there might be some problems with the Made in China part (doesn't completely fall under NAFTA), but I honestly can't figure out the tarrif /import duty laws. But the point is that US prices almost always seem lower =/

jakeonthemove 14y ago
IT IS lower! I've been buying stuff from the US for years now - even accounting for VAT, certain IT products are cheaper, not to mention there are a lot of products you can only find in the US or online...

cientifico 14y ago

Because they can! The good price is the maximum price the client will pay for the service/product. As long as the users buy, they are going to continue this way.

gm 14y ago
I support this argument. Not sure why the downvotes, but it's the most truthful answer in this set of comments. Cheers to you sir, just because people don't like the truth does not make it any less truthful.

swah 14y ago

Will folks that like to use external monitors buy the MBP Retina?

Semaphor 14y ago

Have you looked at the prices for the Aeron Chair? Amazon.com: around $700 Amazon.de: the cheapest offer is 1.298,99€ (that's around 1,624.16) That's some markup there…

auberonx 14y ago

The first post by jgrahamc sums it all up nicely. On the additional 77 EUR Apple charges in Europe, one may have to consider strikter recycling laws. As far as I know, the cost of recycling is already charged at the time of purchase of an electronic product in Europe. That may, at least in part, explain the 77 EUR margin.

deleted 14y ago

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jakeonthemove 14y ago

Yeah, pretty much because they can. The average buyer doesn't compare USD to EURO - they just see the price in EURO and it seems normal. Keep in mind that the salaries are also similar in both countries USD=EURO (so technically US workers are paid less if you convert). Running a company in the EU is also harder than the US, at least for smaller businesses and startups - that may account for something...

mjwalshe 14y ago
Not in the UK from it tech and engineeing jobs our pay is much lower compared to SV and housing costs a lot more. The only advatage we have is only paying 12% for NHS etc instead of 20%+ just for health insurance.
- jakeonthemove 14y ago
  I was talking more about the mainland - Germany, Netherlands and Belgium to be more specific... But you can't really compare anything with the Silicon Valley directly - IT and engineering jobs are present all over the US, and they pay less than SV companies and startups, too...
  - mjwalshe 14y ago
    well going from UK to Europe "Engineers" are MUCH MUCH Higher status jobs. The wife of the Number 2 at BT labs (you know the place that desigend and built Colossus) once got asked what sort of cars her husband worked on :-( And yes they did think he was a car mechanic.

mlitwiniuk 14y ago

Summing it up - EU prices have VAT included and exchange rate is best possible for Apple in long term perspective. But correct me if I'm wrong - if you buy Macbook in Apple store in US their adding some kind of local tax, right? Also - if you're running a company in EU you can refund overpaid VAT, right? So the only difference is, that currency exchange rate is worst possible.

phamilton 14y ago

Why is McDonalds ripping off European customers? In my somewhat limited experience (3 years in Belgium and 2 in Sweden), the only good that has anything to do with the exchange rate is the dollar itself. For everything else, $1 ~= 1 euro ~= 10 SEK ~= 1 pound. Look at the cost of a cheese burger at McDonalds.