4 ms·

You're almost right, but firing a bad hire in many places is near impossible.

gen220 2y ago
I think this is the root cause of most problems. No hiring process has a zero false positive rate. A company needs to be able to fire people quickly and humanely, otherwise good people will leave and you have a mediocracy / Peter principle problem. If you keep a reasonable hiring bar and enforce a reasonable firing bar, you’ll do fine. Netflix famously did a lot of experiments on this that have been written about in public. Being squeamish about freeing people to find a better mutual fit job is really harmful, to an underrated extent.
- Jensson 2y ago
  > Netflix famously did a lot of experiments on this that have been written about in public. Did Netflix really succeed with their strategy though? I don't see them branching out and making new things, so they seem to lack the people to to branch out into more domains like the top giants do.
- thayne 2y ago
  > be able to fire people quickly and humanely In order for that to happen there needs to be a culture shift, where being fired because you aren't a good fit doesn't mark you as unhireable for most other employers.
  - gsbcbdjfncnjd 2y ago
    Since when is the firee’s future employment prospects any business of the company doing the firing?
    - ornornor 2y ago
      It hasn’t been since we’ve elevated sociopathic techbros to near god status. You might also remember it as human decency.
    - intended 2y ago
      The previous comment capstoned the discussion by concluding, correctly imo, that this is a cooperative, non-zero sum game.
    - thayne 2y ago
      Well, in the current culture, if you get a reputation for firing people three months after hiring them, you'll have an awfully hard time finding people who want to work for you. And you will probably see your best workers leaving to work elsewhere.
- ornornor 2y ago
  > freeing people to find a better mutual fit job is really harmful, to an underrated extent. That’s a wonderful corporate speak sentence. I’m almost looking forward to being “freed to find a better mutual fit job.” And I’m not even eligible for unemployment benefits. You have very strong management potential.
  - gen220 2y ago
    Do you think that people who are self-consciously underperforming in a role are happy? Do you think their team is happy? In software, if you aren’t a complete lemon, you’ll have no trouble finding a new company, hopefully one where you can be a better mutual fit and therefore be happy. It actually is freeing, if you view it with a longer time horizon than the day of your last paycheck. If you are 100% invested in the long-term happiness of someone who’s underperforming and unwilling to improve (obviously within reasonable bounds of expectations, these are table stakes), the best thing you can do is write them a recommendation and give them severance. If you find yourself in the unfortunate position of being a lemon in software, you should seek work in a field that doesn’t make you feel or treat you like a lemon. No amount of money will compensate for the feeling that you could be fired with cause any day.
    - ornornor 2y ago
      My comment was about calling out the euphemism. Fired or laid off is unpleasant and not to be taken lightly. Let go or, as you called it, freed to find a better mutual fit is disingenuous because it makes it sound like the company is doing the person they’re firing a favour when they’re actually only looking out for themselves with little to no consideration for the human they’re « freeing ». If I’m the lemon you’re talking about, I’d very much prefer to be treated as an adult (which involves using big, adult words) rather than patronized by the HR dept who is reframing it as if they’re doing me a Favour firing me so they can better sleep at night.
emseetech 2y ago
Not in the US though. And the op comment applies just as much there as anywhere.
mbivert 2y ago
Even in France, there's a trial period during which the employee can leave, or be fired freely; in most cases, 2/3 months should be long enough to detect a bad hire. Assuming there's enough time & resources to manage the new hire properly; if there isn't, then I think it's fair to consider this a failure of the hiring process.
afpx 2y ago
Where do you live? In the US (private sector), I've seen people get let go pretty regularly. When they can't let them go (like if it's government), I've seen people put them on the job that no one cares about and no want wants to be on.
konschubert 2y ago
In Germany, within the first 6 months, you can fire without giving a reason.

I think this is the root cause of most problems. No hiring process has a zero false positive rate. A company needs to be able to fire people quickly and humanely, otherwise good people will leave and you have a mediocracy / Peter principle problem. If you keep a reasonable hiring bar and enforce a reasonable firing bar, you’ll do fine. Netflix famously did a lot of experiments on this that have been written about in public. Being squeamish about freeing people to find a better mutual fit job is really harmful, to an underrated extent.

Jensson 2y ago
> Netflix famously did a lot of experiments on this that have been written about in public. Did Netflix really succeed with their strategy though? I don't see them branching out and making new things, so they seem to lack the people to to branch out into more domains like the top giants do.
thayne 2y ago
> be able to fire people quickly and humanely In order for that to happen there needs to be a culture shift, where being fired because you aren't a good fit doesn't mark you as unhireable for most other employers.
- gsbcbdjfncnjd 2y ago
  Since when is the firee’s future employment prospects any business of the company doing the firing?
  - ornornor 2y ago
    It hasn’t been since we’ve elevated sociopathic techbros to near god status. You might also remember it as human decency.
  - intended 2y ago
    The previous comment capstoned the discussion by concluding, correctly imo, that this is a cooperative, non-zero sum game.
  - thayne 2y ago
    Well, in the current culture, if you get a reputation for firing people three months after hiring them, you'll have an awfully hard time finding people who want to work for you. And you will probably see your best workers leaving to work elsewhere.
ornornor 2y ago
> freeing people to find a better mutual fit job is really harmful, to an underrated extent. That’s a wonderful corporate speak sentence. I’m almost looking forward to being “freed to find a better mutual fit job.” And I’m not even eligible for unemployment benefits. You have very strong management potential.
- gen220 2y ago
  Do you think that people who are self-consciously underperforming in a role are happy? Do you think their team is happy? In software, if you aren’t a complete lemon, you’ll have no trouble finding a new company, hopefully one where you can be a better mutual fit and therefore be happy. It actually is freeing, if you view it with a longer time horizon than the day of your last paycheck. If you are 100% invested in the long-term happiness of someone who’s underperforming and unwilling to improve (obviously within reasonable bounds of expectations, these are table stakes), the best thing you can do is write them a recommendation and give them severance. If you find yourself in the unfortunate position of being a lemon in software, you should seek work in a field that doesn’t make you feel or treat you like a lemon. No amount of money will compensate for the feeling that you could be fired with cause any day.
  - ornornor 2y ago
    My comment was about calling out the euphemism. Fired or laid off is unpleasant and not to be taken lightly. Let go or, as you called it, freed to find a better mutual fit is disingenuous because it makes it sound like the company is doing the person they’re firing a favour when they’re actually only looking out for themselves with little to no consideration for the human they’re « freeing ». If I’m the lemon you’re talking about, I’d very much prefer to be treated as an adult (which involves using big, adult words) rather than patronized by the HR dept who is reframing it as if they’re doing me a Favour firing me so they can better sleep at night.

emseetech 2y ago

Not in the US though. And the op comment applies just as much there as anywhere.

mbivert 2y ago

Even in France, there's a trial period during which the employee can leave, or be fired freely; in most cases, 2/3 months should be long enough to detect a bad hire. Assuming there's enough time & resources to manage the new hire properly; if there isn't, then I think it's fair to consider this a failure of the hiring process.

afpx 2y ago

Where do you live? In the US (private sector), I've seen people get let go pretty regularly. When they can't let them go (like if it's government), I've seen people put them on the job that no one cares about and no want wants to be on.

konschubert 2y ago

In Germany, within the first 6 months, you can fire without giving a reason.