10 ms·

PSA: My buddy shot himself in the head while we were on shrooms in our twenties. He thought he meant God, took a shower picked up a gun and shot himself in the

PSA: My buddy shot himself in the head while we were on shrooms in our twenties. He thought he meant God, took a shower picked up a gun and shot himself in the head. While I've had trips since then and do get benefits from those experiences. People without experience should be careful, especially if you have a history of mental illness. He did have a history to some degree but not overtly.

JohnMakin 2y ago
[flagged]
- stvltvs 2y ago
  I think what you said is compatible with OP. It urged caution, not prohibition.
- bogota 2y ago
  You don’t need to be a doctor or therapist to let people know that some people can have very bad reactions and it’s not all roses. I see the same thing happening in people smoke marijuana where any claim that it can have harmful effects for some or with abuse is met with “yeah well what do you know, i read this other thing and i never had issues myself”.
  - JohnMakin 2y ago
    It seems to me that in this case the issue was someone out of their mind high on shrooms had immediate access to a gun, not the “mentally ill person does drugs and dies” trope which is quite tired and I’m pretty sure not backed by any kind of science. I only posted my reply because comments like these add to the stigma of mental illness and may make people who are suffering less willing to try these types of treatments.
    - darkerside 2y ago
      This observation of fact is more interesting and nuanced than your initial defensive reaction
      - JohnMakin 2y ago
        I appreciate that feedback, thanks.
- jdietrich 2y ago
  >psilocybin is one of the few treatments in the wild right now showing any hope of treating long term PTSD. CBT, EMDR and SSRIs are effective, empirically-supported treatments for PTSD. For people who don't benefit from established treatments, psilocybin is just one of dozens of different potential treatments currently being researched. https://clinicaltrials.gov/search?cond=Posttraumatic%20Stress%20Disorder&aggFilters=status:not%20rec%20act,studyType:int https://clinicaltrials.gov/search?cond=Posttraumatic%20Stres... Psilocybin might be an effective treatment for some patients with PTSD, but there's a dangerous hype bubble surrounding psychedelics that simply doesn't match up to the evidence. We need to be extremely careful about generalising from anecdotal reports and small unblinded trials. Psilocybin might be a huge advance, it might be only marginally more effective than current treatments, or the risks might substantially outweigh the benefits in real clinical populations - we just don't know yet.
- observationist 2y ago
  Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to living a normal life. Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances, and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress, caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger, and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip" into a much worse trauma. Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases, it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances generally, and psychedelics in particular. It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk - apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to engage in psychedelics when you're older. If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on the dose and preparation.
  - JohnMakin 2y ago
    As I said in another post, the mental illness is not the issue here, the immediate access to a gun while blasted on shrooms is.
    - Curvature5868 2y ago
- blue_dragon 2y ago
  Receiving a controlled dose of psilocybin in a supervised medical environment is not the same as tripping balls off shrooms you bought from the guy down the street. I think OP is cautioning vulnerable people against rashly self-administering psychedelics because they think it will solve all their problems. I do not think he believes all research and use of psilocybin should be stopped because of one tragic accident.
- codsane 2y ago
  It’s okay to recognize that something serves a great purpose in a controlled, therapeutic setting but may lead to unpredictable results in an uncontrolled environment. People without experience should absolutely be cautious. And to the original commenter: Thank you for sharing your story, I am very sorry for your loss.
TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Thanks for sharing. Not sure if the guidance to do shrooms in an appropriate setting and with an appropriate mindset ("set and setting") would have helped, but certainly that guidance is no joke! And we should absolutely continue research to learn more about the adverse effects. Obviously they help a lot of people, but must be done with care and seem not to be helpful for every person. We must learn more about these conditions.
- bamboozled 2y ago
  Whenever I read about shroom usage in ancient times, it almost always has some type of guidance and ceremony associated with it. The laws have turned it into something taboo and then people often start consuming psychedelics in a weird and suspicious way to begin with...because it's not legal potentially leading to more and more bad trips. Meditation is similar, often seemed to be associated with guidance from someone who know how to do it and had experience dealing with some of the potential negatives associated with it. I just read a book by Mingyur Rinpoche and I ended up having a severe existential crisis, that book shocked my being to it's core at the time.
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    I agree, we’ve forced consumption to the margins which encourages unsafe use. California is looking at legalizing psychedelic therapy without full legalization which is an interesting approach. I think ultimately adults should be allowed to make their own choices, as I’ve had very meaningful trips in a friends living room for a few dollars and a fully regulated therapeutic setting will probably cost $1000 (based on costs in Oregon). But maybe a therapy-first based approach will help underscore the need for appropriate ritual around these materials. Ultimately though adults are allowed to take risks with alcohol and other substances, and I think we should be free to do so with psychedelics too. https://apnews.com/article/psychedelic-mushrooms-mental-health-california-newsom-64741f803176bd5ff4d0330917c00fac https://apnews.com/article/psychedelic-mushrooms-mental-heal...
  - saladdays 2y ago
    What is the name of the book?
ddingus 2y ago
Thanks for that PSA. And here's to your lost friend! I have a lost one too, but due to a different cause. He took hard drugs he was dealing to pay off a house after a legislative decision basically eliminated his well paying job. We grew up very much do what it fucking takes kind of people. And we were tested in life more than once. I still draw from that time today, sometimes remembering and finding that which will get me through. I miss him terribly. Had he not used, he would have made it! We talked about that, and he used "a little" to know better what he was dealing. Now we all make choices and he made his. At the time, financially, it was understandable, though I would have chosen differently myself. Anyhow... hard lessons! Lost him in my very early 30's and I think of him regularly, as I am sure you do yours. What got him was the loss of autonomous breathing! Yes, right out of Greek mythos, he suddenly had to breathe consciously after a particularly nasty interaction with some of the product and his physiology. It truly was a curse. Bit by bit, he lost the fight. Was cruel and hard to watch. Sidebar: I am angered and lament the timing because I very strongly feel some form of electrical stimulation could have helped. I lacked means at the time. We both really wanted to try. Doctors had nothing. End sidebar. These drugs have awesome potential, but they also come with considerably greater risks than many of us know too. Good PSA. Seconded. Be careful peeps. We think we understand. Fact is we just don't yet. And that will improve with proper study using the scientific method. If you ask me, cutting those risks is the single most powerful argument for permitting ongoing research and study of the powerful things left for us in Mother Natures kitchen.
- voisin 2y ago
  > And that will improve with proper study using the scientific method. How about just having supervised sites with trained trip sitters so that people don’t have the ability (under the influence) to do irreversible things? Perhaps in a therapist’s/doctor’s office.
  - ddingus 2y ago
    Did you read what I shared? Yes, that would be better than a free for all. Of course. The guy I lost had unique physiology that meant he was unable to use a substance most can with far fewer worries. We have that data point now, and I hope it made it into the literature too. But getting it was expensive! Cost one good person, and left a family without a father and many other souls, myself included, hurting. More is needed. And I am not saying your suggestion is bad. I sure do not see it that way. It is just inadequate in light of the real problem space, that's all. And remember, just taking it IS an irreversible thing. For most, that is not a big deal. For some, it is a HUGE deal and the hard fact is we do not understand who is who in all that. Peace, live well, play safe.
kjkjadksj 2y ago
Part of the lesson of this story is the danger of having a gun in the home at all. He could have been sober and depressed and did the same just as easily thanks to having access to a gun. There's a lot of statistical evidence for how dangerous situations like depression or domestic violence can become once a gun is nearby.
- psunavy03 2y ago
  Your first statement is not supported by the second. Yes, in a DV situation or a situation where someone has severe mental illness, it's probably not a good idea to have easy access to a firearm. But if you actually look at the numbers, the average firearm is not used in self-defense, nor is it used to endanger a family member. The vast majority just . . . sit there. They're machines which must be used respectfully and responsibly, not magic evil talismans.
  - radlad 2y ago
    > The vast majority just . . . sit there. This is irrelevant to the statement that having a gun around is more dangerous than not having a gun around. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-ownership-associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/handguns-homicide-risk.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/handguns-homi...
    - newzisforsukas 2y ago
      > Men who owned handguns were eight times more likely than men who didn’t to die of self-inflicted gunshot wounds. > Women who owned handguns were more than 35 times more likely than women who didn't to kill themselves with a gun. That is specific to handguns and kind of what would be expected? Also, being more likely than not likely at all is pretty much comparing degrees of impossibility. Seems like this pops up in arguments often. Something like: "We need to stop this bad thing that rarely happens! Only when it happens even less than hardly ever will we all be safe!"
jeremiahbuckley 2y ago
A user named observationist made a response to this post, but they responded to a troll, whose comment was nuked which removed their very valuable comment (I was responding to them at the time so I happened to have both in cache). observationist https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=observationist https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=observationist original comment: Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to living a normal life. Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances, and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress, caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger, and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip" into a much worse trauma. Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases, it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances generally, and psychedelics in particular. It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk - apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to engage in psychedelics when you're older. If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on the dose and preparation. my response: Thank you for this. I thought this was a very informative comment; I am worried about schizophrenia as a disease that might impact my kids. I wanted to ask you for more information, but that is a burden, so I asked ChatGPT instead so at least you wouldn't have to go find links. If you have Other reading besides what is below I would be happy to hear about it. Here is it's response from ChatGPT (Claude couldn't provide links). My contribution is that I checked the links and skimmed them to see if they supported the statement. They are repetitive (there are only 7 articles linked actually), but they generally support your comment. Of note the PLOS article does not support your comment, and it seems that it doesn't support what ChatGPT says (maybe I misunderstood when skimming it). The stuff in parens below (Looks Like This), was a link in ChatGPT, but the links didn't copy-paste, so I'm going to put all the articles at the top here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-02138-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-02138-4 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-015-0578-7 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12... https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/schizophrenia https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/schizophren... https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/drug-psychosis-may-pull-schizophrenia-trigger https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/drug-psychosis-may-pul... https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/qa/understanding-your-risk-factors/ https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/qa/understanding-your-risk... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0063972 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... The comment you saw online contains some accurate points but also could benefit from additional context and nuance based on available research. 1. Prevalence and Risk Factors of Schizophrenia: - The lifetime prevalence of schizophrenia is approximately 0.3% to 0.7% globally, which supports the 1% figure as an upper bound (Nature) (BioMed Central) (World Health Organization (WHO)) . - Schizophrenia typically emerges in late adolescence to early thirties, with men often experiencing onset earlier than women (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) . - Factors such as genetic predisposition, prenatal exposures, and psychosocial stressors contribute to the risk of developing schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) . 2. Triggers for Psychotic Breaks: - The statement that high doses of psychedelics can trigger psychotic breaks in predisposed individuals is supported by evidence. Drug-induced psychosis, particularly from hallucinogens and cannabis, can lead to schizophrenia in some cases (Psychiatric Times) . - Other triggers include stress, trauma, and significant life changes, which can exacerbate underlying vulnerabilities (Berkeley Psychedelics) . 3. Impact of Psychedelics on Mental Health: - Psychedelics can pose significant risks for individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or other major mental health disorders. It is crucial for these individuals to consult healthcare professionals before considering psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) . - Research has shown that about 25% of those with substance-induced psychosis may transition to schizophrenia, with the type of substance being a significant predictor of this transition (Psychiatric Times) . 4. General Mental Health Considerations: - Around 3-4% of the population may experience significant mental disorders other than schizophrenia. For these individuals, the use of psychoactive substances, including psychedelics, can be particularly detrimental (PLOS) . [NOTE: This seems to be an error from ChatGPT, this PLOS article doesn't seem to support this conclusion. As I haven't done personal work on this yet, I don't know whether the statement is supported by other research.] - Mental health evaluation and professional consultation are recommended before the use of psychedelics to identify potential risks and ensure safety (Berkeley Psychedelics) . 5. Later-Life Considerations: - The risk of new-onset schizophrenia after the age of 45 is indeed rare, which suggests that older individuals may have a lower risk of experiencing a first psychotic episode triggered by psychedelics (Berkeley Psychedelics) . For further reading and to deepen your understanding, you may refer to sources like the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the World Health Organization (WHO), and recent research studies on the global burden and risk factors of schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) (Nature) . Additionally, the Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics (BCSP) provides detailed information on the safety and risks associated with psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
core_dumped 2y ago
Similar thing. My good friend and early college roommate took his own life with a gun after having a bad trip. I wasn’t there for it, but the way he described it he felt ridiculed and deserted by his old high school friends during the trip. He was left alone to deal with these feelings. His mood post trip became increasingly abysmal. He became highly paranoid, and started questioning the loyalty of the people close to him like his family. I now know that this was a sign of possible schizophrenia. I now know that dementia runs in his family. He started creating simplistic yet disturbing paintings. I wish I still had them. This happened in March of 2020, COVID had just become a national concern. I was dating long distance at the time and she wanted me to come up before the airports closed down. Sometimes I regret going. I wish he had gone somewhere so he wasn’t alone. He ended up shooting himself with his grandfathers rifle. I guess the lesson here is be cautious with drugs that can accelerate mental illnesses if you have a family history of them. Check up on your friends that have bad trips and seem kinda off.
- aatd86 2y ago
  Access to weapons is also a problem. That could have been a transient event he would have recovered from.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Yes, when I had a bad concussion from a car rollover, I had bouts of suicidal thought. I got rid of my double edge razor blades and kept my knives away. As my brain healed so did my mind. Better not to have terminal condition tools around if you don't need them.
  - elzbardico 2y ago
    In my life I met two people who survived botched suicide attempts without using firearms. When someone decides to do it, they will try, and there are things worse than dying.
    - im3w1l 2y ago
      > When someone decides to do it, they will try, and there are things worse than dying. Science disagrees. Many attempts are impulsive and a minor hurdle can be enough to stop them.
INTPenis 2y ago
Everyone who has tripped hard and come out unscathed can consider themselves lucky to have such a strong constitution. I am a firm believer in that psychdelics are wonderful, but powerful. And not everyone can handle the experience. At one end might be a slightly anxious trip, but at the other end is a complete breakdown of your reality.
chiefalchemist 2y ago
Set and setting matter. The concept is discussed in Pollan's "How to Change Your Mind." Book and the Netflix series. https://www.netflix.com/title/80229847?preventIntent=true https://www.netflix.com/title/80229847?preventIntent=true
jojobas 2y ago
I have a better idea: not even once.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  I’ll back you up but having done shrooms about a dozen times decades ago, you’re really missing out on a truly out of this world experience.
  - jojobas 2y ago
    Betting your life to get a hallucination is not worth it even at 1:10000 odds. Guess what - you're missing out on a fentanyl high, so awesome that people sell all they have to get more!
    - nulld3v 2y ago
      Then you should never step in a vehicle again for the rest of your life, after all, the odds of the average American dying in a vehicle accident every year is 1 in 5000[1]. That doesn't take into account drivers/non-drivers, but I think it's reasonable to assume drivers are at higher risk than pedestrians considering pedestrians make up only a small portion of vehicle-related fatalities [2][3]. I do wonder what the actual odds are of getting injured by psilocybin though. [1] https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/risky.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/risky.html [2] https://www.ghsa.org/resources/Pedestrians23 https://www.ghsa.org/resources/Pedestrians23 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
      - jojobas 2y ago
        Where I live it's more palatable 1/22k/year, and a lot of that are thrill seekers on motorcycles, drunk drivers etc. More importantly, driving a car gets me where I want to be, not just triggers an unexpected condition bug in my brain.
        2y ago
devwastaken 2y ago
People discover powerful drug -> Powerful drug causes negative reactions in some people -> Drug is banned and knowledge is lost -> People discover powerful drug. Pharma is responsible for suppressing knowledge and proper medical treatments. They're letting people die so the fear sets their patented drugs in stone. It has worked very well for them. There is a plethora of information on the net on how to start safely, if at all, and why most people should not use psychedelics at all. Set and setting are just as important as the dosage.

JohnMakin 2y ago

[flagged]

stvltvs 2y ago
I think what you said is compatible with OP. It urged caution, not prohibition.
bogota 2y ago
You don’t need to be a doctor or therapist to let people know that some people can have very bad reactions and it’s not all roses. I see the same thing happening in people smoke marijuana where any claim that it can have harmful effects for some or with abuse is met with “yeah well what do you know, i read this other thing and i never had issues myself”.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  It seems to me that in this case the issue was someone out of their mind high on shrooms had immediate access to a gun, not the “mentally ill person does drugs and dies” trope which is quite tired and I’m pretty sure not backed by any kind of science. I only posted my reply because comments like these add to the stigma of mental illness and may make people who are suffering less willing to try these types of treatments.
  - darkerside 2y ago
    This observation of fact is more interesting and nuanced than your initial defensive reaction
    - JohnMakin 2y ago
      I appreciate that feedback, thanks.
jdietrich 2y ago
>psilocybin is one of the few treatments in the wild right now showing any hope of treating long term PTSD. CBT, EMDR and SSRIs are effective, empirically-supported treatments for PTSD. For people who don't benefit from established treatments, psilocybin is just one of dozens of different potential treatments currently being researched. https://clinicaltrials.gov/search?cond=Posttraumatic%20Stress%20Disorder&aggFilters=status:not%20rec%20act,studyType:int https://clinicaltrials.gov/search?cond=Posttraumatic%20Stres... Psilocybin might be an effective treatment for some patients with PTSD, but there's a dangerous hype bubble surrounding psychedelics that simply doesn't match up to the evidence. We need to be extremely careful about generalising from anecdotal reports and small unblinded trials. Psilocybin might be a huge advance, it might be only marginally more effective than current treatments, or the risks might substantially outweigh the benefits in real clinical populations - we just don't know yet.
observationist 2y ago
Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to living a normal life. Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances, and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress, caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger, and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip" into a much worse trauma. Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases, it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances generally, and psychedelics in particular. It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk - apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to engage in psychedelics when you're older. If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on the dose and preparation.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  As I said in another post, the mental illness is not the issue here, the immediate access to a gun while blasted on shrooms is.
  - Curvature5868 2y ago
blue_dragon 2y ago
Receiving a controlled dose of psilocybin in a supervised medical environment is not the same as tripping balls off shrooms you bought from the guy down the street. I think OP is cautioning vulnerable people against rashly self-administering psychedelics because they think it will solve all their problems. I do not think he believes all research and use of psilocybin should be stopped because of one tragic accident.
codsane 2y ago
It’s okay to recognize that something serves a great purpose in a controlled, therapeutic setting but may lead to unpredictable results in an uncontrolled environment. People without experience should absolutely be cautious. And to the original commenter: Thank you for sharing your story, I am very sorry for your loss.

TaylorAlexander 2y ago

Thanks for sharing. Not sure if the guidance to do shrooms in an appropriate setting and with an appropriate mindset ("set and setting") would have helped, but certainly that guidance is no joke! And we should absolutely continue research to learn more about the adverse effects. Obviously they help a lot of people, but must be done with care and seem not to be helpful for every person. We must learn more about these conditions.

bamboozled 2y ago
Whenever I read about shroom usage in ancient times, it almost always has some type of guidance and ceremony associated with it. The laws have turned it into something taboo and then people often start consuming psychedelics in a weird and suspicious way to begin with...because it's not legal potentially leading to more and more bad trips. Meditation is similar, often seemed to be associated with guidance from someone who know how to do it and had experience dealing with some of the potential negatives associated with it. I just read a book by Mingyur Rinpoche and I ended up having a severe existential crisis, that book shocked my being to it's core at the time.
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  I agree, we’ve forced consumption to the margins which encourages unsafe use. California is looking at legalizing psychedelic therapy without full legalization which is an interesting approach. I think ultimately adults should be allowed to make their own choices, as I’ve had very meaningful trips in a friends living room for a few dollars and a fully regulated therapeutic setting will probably cost $1000 (based on costs in Oregon). But maybe a therapy-first based approach will help underscore the need for appropriate ritual around these materials. Ultimately though adults are allowed to take risks with alcohol and other substances, and I think we should be free to do so with psychedelics too. https://apnews.com/article/psychedelic-mushrooms-mental-health-california-newsom-64741f803176bd5ff4d0330917c00fac https://apnews.com/article/psychedelic-mushrooms-mental-heal...
- saladdays 2y ago
  What is the name of the book?

ddingus 2y ago

Thanks for that PSA. And here's to your lost friend! I have a lost one too, but due to a different cause. He took hard drugs he was dealing to pay off a house after a legislative decision basically eliminated his well paying job. We grew up very much do what it fucking takes kind of people. And we were tested in life more than once. I still draw from that time today, sometimes remembering and finding that which will get me through. I miss him terribly. Had he not used, he would have made it! We talked about that, and he used "a little" to know better what he was dealing. Now we all make choices and he made his. At the time, financially, it was understandable, though I would have chosen differently myself. Anyhow... hard lessons! Lost him in my very early 30's and I think of him regularly, as I am sure you do yours. What got him was the loss of autonomous breathing! Yes, right out of Greek mythos, he suddenly had to breathe consciously after a particularly nasty interaction with some of the product and his physiology. It truly was a curse. Bit by bit, he lost the fight. Was cruel and hard to watch. Sidebar: I am angered and lament the timing because I very strongly feel some form of electrical stimulation could have helped. I lacked means at the time. We both really wanted to try. Doctors had nothing. End sidebar. These drugs have awesome potential, but they also come with considerably greater risks than many of us know too. Good PSA. Seconded. Be careful peeps. We think we understand. Fact is we just don't yet. And that will improve with proper study using the scientific method. If you ask me, cutting those risks is the single most powerful argument for permitting ongoing research and study of the powerful things left for us in Mother Natures kitchen.

voisin 2y ago
> And that will improve with proper study using the scientific method. How about just having supervised sites with trained trip sitters so that people don’t have the ability (under the influence) to do irreversible things? Perhaps in a therapist’s/doctor’s office.
- ddingus 2y ago
  Did you read what I shared? Yes, that would be better than a free for all. Of course. The guy I lost had unique physiology that meant he was unable to use a substance most can with far fewer worries. We have that data point now, and I hope it made it into the literature too. But getting it was expensive! Cost one good person, and left a family without a father and many other souls, myself included, hurting. More is needed. And I am not saying your suggestion is bad. I sure do not see it that way. It is just inadequate in light of the real problem space, that's all. And remember, just taking it IS an irreversible thing. For most, that is not a big deal. For some, it is a HUGE deal and the hard fact is we do not understand who is who in all that. Peace, live well, play safe.

kjkjadksj 2y ago

Part of the lesson of this story is the danger of having a gun in the home at all. He could have been sober and depressed and did the same just as easily thanks to having access to a gun. There's a lot of statistical evidence for how dangerous situations like depression or domestic violence can become once a gun is nearby.

psunavy03 2y ago
Your first statement is not supported by the second. Yes, in a DV situation or a situation where someone has severe mental illness, it's probably not a good idea to have easy access to a firearm. But if you actually look at the numbers, the average firearm is not used in self-defense, nor is it used to endanger a family member. The vast majority just . . . sit there. They're machines which must be used respectfully and responsibly, not magic evil talismans.
- radlad 2y ago
  > The vast majority just . . . sit there. This is irrelevant to the statement that having a gun around is more dangerous than not having a gun around. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-ownership-associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/handguns-homicide-risk.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/handguns-homi...
  - newzisforsukas 2y ago
    > Men who owned handguns were eight times more likely than men who didn’t to die of self-inflicted gunshot wounds. > Women who owned handguns were more than 35 times more likely than women who didn't to kill themselves with a gun. That is specific to handguns and kind of what would be expected? Also, being more likely than not likely at all is pretty much comparing degrees of impossibility. Seems like this pops up in arguments often. Something like: "We need to stop this bad thing that rarely happens! Only when it happens even less than hardly ever will we all be safe!"

jeremiahbuckley 2y ago

A user named observationist made a response to this post, but they responded to a troll, whose comment was nuked which removed their very valuable comment (I was responding to them at the time so I happened to have both in cache). observationist https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=observationist https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=observationist original comment: Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to living a normal life. Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances, and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress, caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger, and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip" into a much worse trauma. Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases, it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances generally, and psychedelics in particular. It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk - apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to engage in psychedelics when you're older. If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on the dose and preparation. my response: Thank you for this. I thought this was a very informative comment; I am worried about schizophrenia as a disease that might impact my kids. I wanted to ask you for more information, but that is a burden, so I asked ChatGPT instead so at least you wouldn't have to go find links. If you have Other reading besides what is below I would be happy to hear about it. Here is it's response from ChatGPT (Claude couldn't provide links). My contribution is that I checked the links and skimmed them to see if they supported the statement. They are repetitive (there are only 7 articles linked actually), but they generally support your comment. Of note the PLOS article does not support your comment, and it seems that it doesn't support what ChatGPT says (maybe I misunderstood when skimming it). The stuff in parens below (Looks Like This), was a link in ChatGPT, but the links didn't copy-paste, so I'm going to put all the articles at the top here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-02138-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-02138-4 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-015-0578-7 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12... https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/schizophrenia https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/schizophren... https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/drug-psychosis-may-pull-schizophrenia-trigger https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/drug-psychosis-may-pul... https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/qa/understanding-your-risk-factors/ https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/qa/understanding-your-risk... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0063972 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... The comment you saw online contains some accurate points but also could benefit from additional context and nuance based on available research. 1. Prevalence and Risk Factors of Schizophrenia: - The lifetime prevalence of schizophrenia is approximately 0.3% to 0.7% globally, which supports the 1% figure as an upper bound (Nature) (BioMed Central) (World Health Organization (WHO)) . - Schizophrenia typically emerges in late adolescence to early thirties, with men often experiencing onset earlier than women (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) . - Factors such as genetic predisposition, prenatal exposures, and psychosocial stressors contribute to the risk of developing schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) . 2. Triggers for Psychotic Breaks: - The statement that high doses of psychedelics can trigger psychotic breaks in predisposed individuals is supported by evidence. Drug-induced psychosis, particularly from hallucinogens and cannabis, can lead to schizophrenia in some cases (Psychiatric Times) . - Other triggers include stress, trauma, and significant life changes, which can exacerbate underlying vulnerabilities (Berkeley Psychedelics) . 3. Impact of Psychedelics on Mental Health: - Psychedelics can pose significant risks for individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or other major mental health disorders. It is crucial for these individuals to consult healthcare professionals before considering psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) . - Research has shown that about 25% of those with substance-induced psychosis may transition to schizophrenia, with the type of substance being a significant predictor of this transition (Psychiatric Times) . 4. General Mental Health Considerations: - Around 3-4% of the population may experience significant mental disorders other than schizophrenia. For these individuals, the use of psychoactive substances, including psychedelics, can be particularly detrimental (PLOS) . [NOTE: This seems to be an error from ChatGPT, this PLOS article doesn't seem to support this conclusion. As I haven't done personal work on this yet, I don't know whether the statement is supported by other research.] - Mental health evaluation and professional consultation are recommended before the use of psychedelics to identify potential risks and ensure safety (Berkeley Psychedelics) . 5. Later-Life Considerations: - The risk of new-onset schizophrenia after the age of 45 is indeed rare, which suggests that older individuals may have a lower risk of experiencing a first psychotic episode triggered by psychedelics (Berkeley Psychedelics) . For further reading and to deepen your understanding, you may refer to sources like the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the World Health Organization (WHO), and recent research studies on the global burden and risk factors of schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) (Nature) . Additionally, the Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics (BCSP) provides detailed information on the safety and risks associated with psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .

core_dumped 2y ago

Similar thing. My good friend and early college roommate took his own life with a gun after having a bad trip. I wasn’t there for it, but the way he described it he felt ridiculed and deserted by his old high school friends during the trip. He was left alone to deal with these feelings. His mood post trip became increasingly abysmal. He became highly paranoid, and started questioning the loyalty of the people close to him like his family. I now know that this was a sign of possible schizophrenia. I now know that dementia runs in his family. He started creating simplistic yet disturbing paintings. I wish I still had them. This happened in March of 2020, COVID had just become a national concern. I was dating long distance at the time and she wanted me to come up before the airports closed down. Sometimes I regret going. I wish he had gone somewhere so he wasn’t alone. He ended up shooting himself with his grandfathers rifle. I guess the lesson here is be cautious with drugs that can accelerate mental illnesses if you have a family history of them. Check up on your friends that have bad trips and seem kinda off.

aatd86 2y ago
Access to weapons is also a problem. That could have been a transient event he would have recovered from.
- renewiltord 2y ago
  Yes, when I had a bad concussion from a car rollover, I had bouts of suicidal thought. I got rid of my double edge razor blades and kept my knives away. As my brain healed so did my mind. Better not to have terminal condition tools around if you don't need them.
- elzbardico 2y ago
  In my life I met two people who survived botched suicide attempts without using firearms. When someone decides to do it, they will try, and there are things worse than dying.
  - im3w1l 2y ago
    > When someone decides to do it, they will try, and there are things worse than dying. Science disagrees. Many attempts are impulsive and a minor hurdle can be enough to stop them.

INTPenis 2y ago

Everyone who has tripped hard and come out unscathed can consider themselves lucky to have such a strong constitution. I am a firm believer in that psychdelics are wonderful, but powerful. And not everyone can handle the experience. At one end might be a slightly anxious trip, but at the other end is a complete breakdown of your reality.

chiefalchemist 2y ago

Set and setting matter. The concept is discussed in Pollan's "How to Change Your Mind." Book and the Netflix series. https://www.netflix.com/title/80229847?preventIntent=true https://www.netflix.com/title/80229847?preventIntent=true

jojobas 2y ago

I have a better idea: not even once.

dyauspitr 2y ago
I’ll back you up but having done shrooms about a dozen times decades ago, you’re really missing out on a truly out of this world experience.
- jojobas 2y ago
  Betting your life to get a hallucination is not worth it even at 1:10000 odds. Guess what - you're missing out on a fentanyl high, so awesome that people sell all they have to get more!
  - nulld3v 2y ago
    Then you should never step in a vehicle again for the rest of your life, after all, the odds of the average American dying in a vehicle accident every year is 1 in 5000[1]. That doesn't take into account drivers/non-drivers, but I think it's reasonable to assume drivers are at higher risk than pedestrians considering pedestrians make up only a small portion of vehicle-related fatalities [2][3]. I do wonder what the actual odds are of getting injured by psilocybin though. [1] https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/risky.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/risky.html [2] https://www.ghsa.org/resources/Pedestrians23 https://www.ghsa.org/resources/Pedestrians23 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
    - jojobas 2y ago
      Where I live it's more palatable 1/22k/year, and a lot of that are thrill seekers on motorcycles, drunk drivers etc. More importantly, driving a car gets me where I want to be, not just triggers an unexpected condition bug in my brain.
      - 2y ago

devwastaken 2y ago

People discover powerful drug -> Powerful drug causes negative reactions in some people -> Drug is banned and knowledge is lost -> People discover powerful drug. Pharma is responsible for suppressing knowledge and proper medical treatments. They're letting people die so the fear sets their patented drugs in stone. It has worked very well for them. There is a plethora of information on the net on how to start safely, if at all, and why most people should not use psychedelics at all. Set and setting are just as important as the dosage.