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While the analogies are often useful, everyone reading HN comments should be very aware and very skeptical of just how often computer/tech people rely on comput

While the analogies are often useful, everyone reading HN comments should be very aware and very skeptical of just how often computer/tech people rely on computer/tech analogies to understand things that are fundamentally not computers/tech. It is very very easy for smart people with functionally specific jobs/hobbies/ways of thinking to see all reality through that narrow window. It often leads to important details being glossed over or entirely missed. The more self-confident ones quickly start seeing the analogies as fundamental facts, usually with negative consequences like loss of empathy or a tendency to see big picture generalizations as specific universal truths. Mushrooms have had a similar effect on me at times. You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths. Similar to religiously “knowing” something. And that feeling of knowing is hard to overcome. But it is just a feeling.

codr7 2y ago
I would argue it's way more meaningful... It's unconscious knowledge; maybe not ready to hit the surface yet, but still actively affecting your life from within. Whatever glimpses you get is just what you're capable of dealing with atm. Everybody's experience is different.
- stvltvs 2y ago
  It might clarify things to say unconscious beliefs, expectations, or thought patterns instead of knowledge. It doesn't seem that the subconscious mind is a font of pure wisdom and knowledge but it powerfully affects us in ways that our conscious mind isn't aware of, by definition. Before using psychedelics, it's important to anchor ourselves by questioning the difference between knowing something and feeling like we know something.
  - mock-possum 2y ago
    One thing that a lot of people struggle with is seeing their feelings as ‘just’ feelings - it’s got to be something to do with our biology, where we instinctively seek out and cling to answers for why we feel a certain way - to justify our feelings I guess - instead of recognizing them as ‘just’ feelings, and seeing that instinct for what it is - ‘blind’ instinct that can easily seduce us into false beliefs.
    - codr7 2y ago
      Yeah, feelings are real. Though most of them probably have very little to do with you.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    > Before using psychedelics, it's important to anchor ourselves by questioning the difference between knowing something and feeling like we know something. The inverse seems more prudent to me, since mostly all global decisions get made when not on psychedelics, and we arguably have a severe lack of truly novel, out of the box ideas...who knows, maybe something useful for addressing climate change, polarization, etc could result! Or at least, run some trial studies comparing results under the three modes. I don't think I've ever heard of a study like this being done before.
    - stvltvs 2y ago
      Idea generation from psychedelics is okay, but we should avoid thinking we've received a divine revelation of unquestionable truth because it felt true.
      - mistermann 2y ago
        This should also apply to the same during normal consciousness, but for some reason that state is privileged, beyond absolute questioning or suspicion. It's quite a neat trick.
throwaway_82467 2y ago
I'm convinced this is actually a symptom of using psychedelics. Ironically, using quite a lot of anec-data, there definitely seems to be a correlation between use of psychedelics among myself/peers and how "suggestible" people are. I've seen a lot of folks go really deep in conspiracy theories (regardless of the political/social positioning), strong religious beliefs, or similar such lines-of-thought that require a "leap of faith" or reasoning-by-analogy. Overall I believe that something about taking them puts you into a state of mind that is more "open", and therefore, more "gullible" to believe that you are latching onto some profound truth or significant idea.
- bubblyworld 2y ago
  I've never been sure which way the causation goes (if any), but I've known three people so far who had psychotic breaks after an intense mushroom trip. Similar to what you wrote - a sudden obsession with conspiracy theories and/or intense religious persuasions. Something they all had in common was being very confident and self-assured to begin with, which makes me wonder if it's particularly risky for those kinds of people? They all recovered, fortunately.
- ajb 2y ago
  Your theory reminds me of this (long) article: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-up/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-...
bubblyworld 2y ago
I've had similar experiences on mushrooms (and high doses of marijuana too, to a lesser extent). It feels like a mix of intense awe and the the satisfactory "click" of finally understanding something to me. I'm quite sure it's more of an emotional state than "fundamental truth", or anything like that, but it sure is powerful. Very easy to understand how mythology can build around the stuff.
- sdwr 2y ago
  Mythology, also procedure. If I am a member of a tribe that uses ceremonial ayhuasca at regular intervals, I will build my relationships around that cycle, so the feeling of awe and understanding corresponds with an actual personal breakthrough or meaningful group event. That's the 10x use case
  - bubblyworld 2y ago
    That's an interesting idea, thanks. I might consider trying it!
  - jdietrich 2y ago
    >That's the 10x use case It might be, or it might be a ritual that has no meaningful benefit. There's a huge amount of hype around psychedelics, but extremely limited evidence with a very high risk of bias.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  > It feels like a mix of intense awe and the the satisfactory "click" of finally understanding something to me. I almost wonder if all of this is simply because drugs can produce a strong anti-anxiety / euphoric effect, providing a powerful sense of confidence in one's convictions.
  - progmetaldev 2y ago
    As well as the complete opposite effect for certain individuals, which I think is just as important to study to help those that have these reactions. I can imagine the mythology built around visions of Hell/negative afterlife could have just as easily been sparked by negative psychedelic experiences.
itronitron 2y ago
Feeling "it is just a feeling" is also just a feeling.
- notnaut 2y ago
  Not in the sense I meant. The “enlightenment” confidence and awe-struck assuredness is the feeling and it comes from deep inside. Recognizing that confidence and assuredness are not knowledge is not quite the same as those feelings themselves. Though I do recognize this is sort of recursive and cyclical and ultimately there’s nothing but some type of faith to build everything on, including doubt/skepticism.
- baq 2y ago
  Absolutely not. Feeling "it is just a feeling" is being grounded in reality and affirming your senses and convictions are volatile and shouldn't be trusted. Feeling "I solved the world, everybody listen to me" is... not.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    > Feeling "I solved the world, everybody listen to me" is... not. Does this apply to the preceding paragraph in your comment? How about to science, and various other The Way's currently popular bordering on mandatory (if you want to be respected at least) in this era, culture, geographical region?
    - baq 2y ago
      Science is all about removing feelings, accepting that it isn’t possible to not feel and channel that into constantly doubting. Feeling doubtful is fundamentally different than feeling enlightened.
      - mistermann 2y ago
        Are scientists a part of science?
uoaei 2y ago
There are ways things can be computers that don't require the typical setup of a von Neumann architecture. Psilocybin taught me that. My education and subsequent studies confirmed that.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
> You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths. Yep. During a pretty bad episode of delusional schizophrenia (for lack of any better diagnosis) I had that, many years ago. I felt like I was either on the verge of a huge epiphany or I'd just had one, for a few weeks. Every time it was nonsense or couldn't be explained. Luckily I have not relapsed and I have been off the antipsychotics for a few years The only permanent damage is that every medical professional says I should never do psychoactive drugs. Which sucks cause they sound fun and I wonder if they'd help me get over some other problems I have. Maybe after I've retired.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
vsuperpower2021 2y ago
[dead]
DaoVeles 2y ago
My favorite shrooms story is from reddit. Someone when taking schrooms would always "talk to God" and would get answers but they could never remember them the next day. So one day they ensured they had a notepad around to write down the answers. They did the trip and asked "What is the meaning of life?". When they woke up all that was written on the note pad was "walls". It must have felt profound at the time but it was basically meaningless. And that is a lot of drugs.
mistermann 2y ago
> But it is just a feeling. Culture and science are also powerful benders of reality.

codr7 2y ago

I would argue it's way more meaningful... It's unconscious knowledge; maybe not ready to hit the surface yet, but still actively affecting your life from within. Whatever glimpses you get is just what you're capable of dealing with atm. Everybody's experience is different.

stvltvs 2y ago
It might clarify things to say unconscious beliefs, expectations, or thought patterns instead of knowledge. It doesn't seem that the subconscious mind is a font of pure wisdom and knowledge but it powerfully affects us in ways that our conscious mind isn't aware of, by definition. Before using psychedelics, it's important to anchor ourselves by questioning the difference between knowing something and feeling like we know something.
- mock-possum 2y ago
  One thing that a lot of people struggle with is seeing their feelings as ‘just’ feelings - it’s got to be something to do with our biology, where we instinctively seek out and cling to answers for why we feel a certain way - to justify our feelings I guess - instead of recognizing them as ‘just’ feelings, and seeing that instinct for what it is - ‘blind’ instinct that can easily seduce us into false beliefs.
  - codr7 2y ago
    Yeah, feelings are real. Though most of them probably have very little to do with you.
- mistermann 2y ago
  > Before using psychedelics, it's important to anchor ourselves by questioning the difference between knowing something and feeling like we know something. The inverse seems more prudent to me, since mostly all global decisions get made when not on psychedelics, and we arguably have a severe lack of truly novel, out of the box ideas...who knows, maybe something useful for addressing climate change, polarization, etc could result! Or at least, run some trial studies comparing results under the three modes. I don't think I've ever heard of a study like this being done before.
  - stvltvs 2y ago
    Idea generation from psychedelics is okay, but we should avoid thinking we've received a divine revelation of unquestionable truth because it felt true.
    - mistermann 2y ago
      This should also apply to the same during normal consciousness, but for some reason that state is privileged, beyond absolute questioning or suspicion. It's quite a neat trick.

throwaway_82467 2y ago

I'm convinced this is actually a symptom of using psychedelics. Ironically, using quite a lot of anec-data, there definitely seems to be a correlation between use of psychedelics among myself/peers and how "suggestible" people are. I've seen a lot of folks go really deep in conspiracy theories (regardless of the political/social positioning), strong religious beliefs, or similar such lines-of-thought that require a "leap of faith" or reasoning-by-analogy. Overall I believe that something about taking them puts you into a state of mind that is more "open", and therefore, more "gullible" to believe that you are latching onto some profound truth or significant idea.

bubblyworld 2y ago
I've never been sure which way the causation goes (if any), but I've known three people so far who had psychotic breaks after an intense mushroom trip. Similar to what you wrote - a sudden obsession with conspiracy theories and/or intense religious persuasions. Something they all had in common was being very confident and self-assured to begin with, which makes me wonder if it's particularly risky for those kinds of people? They all recovered, fortunately.
ajb 2y ago
Your theory reminds me of this (long) article: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-up/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-...

bubblyworld 2y ago

I've had similar experiences on mushrooms (and high doses of marijuana too, to a lesser extent). It feels like a mix of intense awe and the the satisfactory "click" of finally understanding something to me. I'm quite sure it's more of an emotional state than "fundamental truth", or anything like that, but it sure is powerful. Very easy to understand how mythology can build around the stuff.

sdwr 2y ago
Mythology, also procedure. If I am a member of a tribe that uses ceremonial ayhuasca at regular intervals, I will build my relationships around that cycle, so the feeling of awe and understanding corresponds with an actual personal breakthrough or meaningful group event. That's the 10x use case
- bubblyworld 2y ago
  That's an interesting idea, thanks. I might consider trying it!
- jdietrich 2y ago
  >That's the 10x use case It might be, or it might be a ritual that has no meaningful benefit. There's a huge amount of hype around psychedelics, but extremely limited evidence with a very high risk of bias.
Apocryphon 2y ago
> It feels like a mix of intense awe and the the satisfactory "click" of finally understanding something to me. I almost wonder if all of this is simply because drugs can produce a strong anti-anxiety / euphoric effect, providing a powerful sense of confidence in one's convictions.
- progmetaldev 2y ago
  As well as the complete opposite effect for certain individuals, which I think is just as important to study to help those that have these reactions. I can imagine the mythology built around visions of Hell/negative afterlife could have just as easily been sparked by negative psychedelic experiences.

itronitron 2y ago

Feeling "it is just a feeling" is also just a feeling.

notnaut 2y ago
Not in the sense I meant. The “enlightenment” confidence and awe-struck assuredness is the feeling and it comes from deep inside. Recognizing that confidence and assuredness are not knowledge is not quite the same as those feelings themselves. Though I do recognize this is sort of recursive and cyclical and ultimately there’s nothing but some type of faith to build everything on, including doubt/skepticism.
baq 2y ago
Absolutely not. Feeling "it is just a feeling" is being grounded in reality and affirming your senses and convictions are volatile and shouldn't be trusted. Feeling "I solved the world, everybody listen to me" is... not.
- mistermann 2y ago
  > Feeling "I solved the world, everybody listen to me" is... not. Does this apply to the preceding paragraph in your comment? How about to science, and various other The Way's currently popular bordering on mandatory (if you want to be respected at least) in this era, culture, geographical region?
  - baq 2y ago
    Science is all about removing feelings, accepting that it isn’t possible to not feel and channel that into constantly doubting. Feeling doubtful is fundamentally different than feeling enlightened.
    - mistermann 2y ago
      Are scientists a part of science?

uoaei 2y ago

There are ways things can be computers that don't require the typical setup of a von Neumann architecture. Psilocybin taught me that. My education and subsequent studies confirmed that.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

> You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths. Yep. During a pretty bad episode of delusional schizophrenia (for lack of any better diagnosis) I had that, many years ago. I felt like I was either on the verge of a huge epiphany or I'd just had one, for a few weeks. Every time it was nonsense or couldn't be explained. Luckily I have not relapsed and I have been off the antipsychotics for a few years The only permanent damage is that every medical professional says I should never do psychoactive drugs. Which sucks cause they sound fun and I wonder if they'd help me get over some other problems I have. Maybe after I've retired.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

vsuperpower2021 2y ago

[dead]

DaoVeles 2y ago

My favorite shrooms story is from reddit. Someone when taking schrooms would always "talk to God" and would get answers but they could never remember them the next day. So one day they ensured they had a notepad around to write down the answers. They did the trip and asked "What is the meaning of life?". When they woke up all that was written on the note pad was "walls". It must have felt profound at the time but it was basically meaningless. And that is a lot of drugs.

mistermann 2y ago

> But it is just a feeling. Culture and science are also powerful benders of reality.