4 ms·

Since someone mentioned 'declouding' here, my startup (well, scaleup now) makes a few privacy-first, autonomous (no cloud) video security products - on-prem vid

by mv4 2y ago

Since someone mentioned 'declouding' here, my startup (well, scaleup now) makes a few privacy-first, autonomous (no cloud) video security products - on-prem video security hub, relays for automation, cameras. I was also getting sick of cloud-based 'smart' cameras that ping random servers in China, so we made our own 'dumb' cameras that are fast (Uniview hardware with our firmware inside). If anyone here is interested, I will happily share more info. Always interested in product feedback.

fusslo 2y ago
This is exactly what I've been looking for. There's plenty of cheap RTSP and ONVIF compliant cameras coming out of china, but I trust them exactly 0%. I also don't trust us-based companies with remote access via their services. So I'm learning how to partition my home network to not allow the cameras on a vlan to not access the outside world. But then I need to figure out how to access the video streams.. from the network my computer is on that does have access to the outside world. I'm a firmware engineer, so I haven't touched networking since my IT job in college.
- mv4 2y ago
  Mine are ONVIF-discoverable and will expose RTSP (H264 and H265) URLs and a snapshot URL. As I mentioned, they are 'dumb' (video and snapshots are their main purpose), and it's the security hub that makes them smart. No cloud-based remote access, your data stays on your device. If you decide to check it out, and feel free to ping me (email in profile). I am proud of these things, for the reasons you mentioned :) https://monitoreal.com/pro/monitoreal-camera/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/monitoreal-camera/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/security-assistant-spartan-i/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/security-assistant-spartan-i/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/monitoreal-relay/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/monitoreal-relay/
  - cbsks 2y ago
    I’m interested! I have a few cheap Poe cameras but the rtsp connection is always flaky on them. Your email is not in your profile by the way.
    - mv4 2y ago
      Thanks, just added email (+LinkedIn). Happy to chat. Not selling direct-to-consumer yet (going through installers and integrators) but that's coming.
      - cbsks 2y ago
        Ah bummer. I’m just a lowly consumer.
        mv4 2y ago
        Q4 of this year, I think.
      - mv4 2y ago
        What I meant we don't have a "click here to buy" just yet. We can still figure out how you can evaluate if you're interested.
- mv4 2y ago
  If your cameras are PoE, you can use an NVR that doubles as a PoE switch and can create a separate network for the cameras. Some NVRs will also relay RTSP from them so it will be accessible on your LAN. Alternatively, adding static routes to devices will allow them to see the cameras locally. Unfortunately, the NVR will probably have the same type of vulnerabilities as the cameras in question (they come from same manufacturers). Or, use something we've built :)
- lormayna 2y ago
  This is exactly the role for a firewall.
- ww520 2y ago
  Here's a setup that works. Get POE cameras. Get a powered switch with sufficient power to power the cameras. The cameras and the switch form their own subnet. Get a PC with two Ethernet jacks (or an Ethernet and a WIFI). Install NVR software, Blue Iris, iSpy, ZoneMinder, etc, on the PC to record and process the videos from the cameras. These softwares are all good with RTSP and ONVIF, with easy camera detection via port scanning. Connect the PC to the switch on one Ehternet jack and connect it to your general network with the other one (or WIFI). The cameras are running in their little isolated subnet. The NVR PC sits between the camera subnet and the general subnet. Access from outside reaches the NVR PC only, not the cameras. You can even open the WAN firewall to reach the PC's WIFI side to access the videos from Internet. Some of these NVR software can stream videos to outside phone apps or web apps.
  - mv4 2y ago
    This will absolutely work if you know what you're doing. Similar to what I proposed with the NVR+PoE. Also, this feels like my Dropbox moment (the infamous comment below) :) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 I am trying to remove this complexity.
    - ww520 2y ago
      Sorry if I came off negatively. I was responding to OP. Your products look good. Here's a bit of my experience on using NVR if that helps in better product design. Most NVR's are PC + powered switch built into one. I found them to be running very hot most of the times since they need a fairly beefy power supply to power the cameras and the PC itself. The WIFI only NVR's are much better and the only power drawn is video processing on the PC. Blink Module is a good example. Another problem is the tight integration of hardware. When I have more cameras than the PoE jacks on the NVR, it becomes obsolete. When some hardware fails on the NVR, the whole thing fails. My last integrated NVR developed a problem in the disk controller and the whole thing couldn't be salvaged. In the next round of setting the system up, I decided to de-couple all the pieces for better maintenance and upgradibility. The sweet spot I found is: cameras + powered switch + PC + NVR software + external USB storage. It has work great so far. The old PC was underpowered and I swapped it out without impacting the other pieces. I added more disks as needed with minimum fuss. I replaced some of the cameras without much problem. You're right in that ordinary customers probably won't do all those. For a customer product, a NVR that works with WIFI cameras makes the easiest sales. It has much lower hardware requirement thus keeping the cost down. WIFI cameras are easier to set up and thus plentiful. If it has an Ethernet jack, you can sell a separate powered switch to make it work with the PoE cameras. Basically it's a souped up Blink Module that works with other cameras, with storage, and can stream to apps and web. I mean you can sell a whole package of the pieces, plus phone apps and cloud storage, to offer a complete solution. Most of the pieces are off the shelf, but you can still offer a complete solution with some critical proprietary pieces like your NVR software. Of course you can offer piece by piece as needed, as long as all the pieces can fit together. There're a lot of cross selling opportunities.
michaelt 2y ago
> Always interested in product feedback. While I share your concerns about the security implications of sending video to the cloud, the way I see it if someone's burgling my house they're probably going to steal whatever I'm using for on-prem video storage while they're at it. And while I could secure it in an impenetrable or hidden box - if I have such a box I can put all my valuables in the box, and feel peace of mind without needing any cameras.
- mv4 2y ago
  These are good points. The main problem we're solving for people is real-time awareness and automation/prevention. The device monitors your cameras locally (no cloud), notifies you, and/or performs actions locally (play barkingdog.mp3, close gates, turn on the lights, etc) that act as a deterrent. Even if your uplink is down. Now, if someone's broken in, that's a different problem. You want video evidence for investigative purposes. The device is small, energy efficient (10-20W typically) and can be easily hidden (provided you supply power and LAN ethernet to it). The storage is encrypted. And we'll be introducing an option for your own offsite backup (again, optional and not centralized). Interesting problem for sure.
- theendisney 2y ago
  There are many other applications. Even fake cameras work. My cat sometimes decides to gather his own food and not go inside for days. He does bother to check his teratory for intruders. Shady figures and actual con men ringing my bell. Missed deliveries real or lies. Arguments with the significant other about who said what. A drunk englishman sleeping in my garden and other truly hilarious footage.
- throwway120385 2y ago
  Put it in a NEMA box somewhere out of sight. People will assume it's alarm equipment if you do that and won't mess with it.
scottlamb 2y ago
I've been looking for a camera to recommend for use with my open-source NVR. [1] This sounds promising, but I have a few questions. * What's the status of Uniview? Are their cameras allowed in the US under the 2019 NDAA? still receiving FCC approvals since the Secure Equipment Act of 2021? Does Uniview participate in the Uyghur genocide? * Do you have any models with large sensors, e.g. 1/1.8" or wider? I prefer good night performance if possible, which I believe requires each pixel to be physically somewhat large. There are a lot of many-megapixel cameras with 1/3" sensors out there, which aren't so great there. * What's the pricing? Your camera page [2] has "contact us for info" instead of a price, and when that happens I usually assume it's too expensive for the DIY crowd and drop out. [1] https://github.com/scottlamb/moonfire-nvr https://github.com/scottlamb/moonfire-nvr [2] https://monitoreal.com/product/monitoreal-perimeter-cameras-4mp/ https://monitoreal.com/product/monitoreal-perimeter-cameras-...
- mv4 2y ago
  1. Uniview [told me] they are NDAA compliant. Most (not all) of their NVRs and cameras are compliant. I was not aware of their involvement in the genocide, but I do see mentions of their facial recognition tech potentially being used. I don't know enough to comment. This is their formal statement regarding their NDAA status: https://www.uniview.com/us/About_Us/Legal_Notice/Notice/202008/963104_612074_0.htm https://www.uniview.com/us/About_Us/Legal_Notice/Notice/2020... 2. we are now working in a new line that will have larger sensors, better low-light capabilities, better audio (2-way). We will publish more in Q4. 3. we've been working with professional installers primarily focusing on SMB, so our current 4MP (2.8mm and 4.0mm) cameras can be in $100-200 range depending on volume. 2MP cameras are sold in $80-130 range. With SMB, price hasn't been an issue. I understand this is not particularly useful for DIY, we're just preparing to start selling direct - and aiming to release cameras in $30-80 range. You can ping me (contact info in profile) if you need more info, or how to evaluate risk-free. Just bear with me as we figure out the DIY route. :)
  - scottlamb 2y ago
    Man, so close. Your prices sound really reasonable to me, it's nice to hear that you're preparing for direct sales and for a larger-sensor line. But this does not look good: https://ipvm.com/reports/uniview-uyghur https://ipvm.com/reports/uniview-uyghur
theendisney 2y ago
It should be fine to add a link.
qhwudbebd 2y ago
I'm really interested to hear more about your work too! I've had a few situations where IP cameras would have been ideal, but I dropped the idea after examining a handful because the firmware is invariably too awful to contemplate running. Reading your later replies, I gathered you took a standard camera but wrote clean new firmware for it. Is the SoC on these devices supported by mainline tf-a, u-boot and kernels, or are you stuck on ancient manufacturer ('BSP') kernel forks and so on? What does the userspace you've put together look like?

by mv4 2y ago

fusslo 2y ago

This is exactly what I've been looking for. There's plenty of cheap RTSP and ONVIF compliant cameras coming out of china, but I trust them exactly 0%. I also don't trust us-based companies with remote access via their services. So I'm learning how to partition my home network to not allow the cameras on a vlan to not access the outside world. But then I need to figure out how to access the video streams.. from the network my computer is on that does have access to the outside world. I'm a firmware engineer, so I haven't touched networking since my IT job in college.

mv4 2y ago
Mine are ONVIF-discoverable and will expose RTSP (H264 and H265) URLs and a snapshot URL. As I mentioned, they are 'dumb' (video and snapshots are their main purpose), and it's the security hub that makes them smart. No cloud-based remote access, your data stays on your device. If you decide to check it out, and feel free to ping me (email in profile). I am proud of these things, for the reasons you mentioned :) https://monitoreal.com/pro/monitoreal-camera/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/monitoreal-camera/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/security-assistant-spartan-i/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/security-assistant-spartan-i/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/monitoreal-relay/ https://monitoreal.com/pro/monitoreal-relay/
- cbsks 2y ago
  I’m interested! I have a few cheap Poe cameras but the rtsp connection is always flaky on them. Your email is not in your profile by the way.
  - mv4 2y ago
    Thanks, just added email (+LinkedIn). Happy to chat. Not selling direct-to-consumer yet (going through installers and integrators) but that's coming.
    - cbsks 2y ago
      Ah bummer. I’m just a lowly consumer.
      - mv4 2y ago
        Q4 of this year, I think.
    - mv4 2y ago
      What I meant we don't have a "click here to buy" just yet. We can still figure out how you can evaluate if you're interested.
mv4 2y ago
If your cameras are PoE, you can use an NVR that doubles as a PoE switch and can create a separate network for the cameras. Some NVRs will also relay RTSP from them so it will be accessible on your LAN. Alternatively, adding static routes to devices will allow them to see the cameras locally. Unfortunately, the NVR will probably have the same type of vulnerabilities as the cameras in question (they come from same manufacturers). Or, use something we've built :)
lormayna 2y ago
This is exactly the role for a firewall.
ww520 2y ago
Here's a setup that works. Get POE cameras. Get a powered switch with sufficient power to power the cameras. The cameras and the switch form their own subnet. Get a PC with two Ethernet jacks (or an Ethernet and a WIFI). Install NVR software, Blue Iris, iSpy, ZoneMinder, etc, on the PC to record and process the videos from the cameras. These softwares are all good with RTSP and ONVIF, with easy camera detection via port scanning. Connect the PC to the switch on one Ehternet jack and connect it to your general network with the other one (or WIFI). The cameras are running in their little isolated subnet. The NVR PC sits between the camera subnet and the general subnet. Access from outside reaches the NVR PC only, not the cameras. You can even open the WAN firewall to reach the PC's WIFI side to access the videos from Internet. Some of these NVR software can stream videos to outside phone apps or web apps.
- mv4 2y ago
  This will absolutely work if you know what you're doing. Similar to what I proposed with the NVR+PoE. Also, this feels like my Dropbox moment (the infamous comment below) :) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 I am trying to remove this complexity.
  - ww520 2y ago
    Sorry if I came off negatively. I was responding to OP. Your products look good. Here's a bit of my experience on using NVR if that helps in better product design. Most NVR's are PC + powered switch built into one. I found them to be running very hot most of the times since they need a fairly beefy power supply to power the cameras and the PC itself. The WIFI only NVR's are much better and the only power drawn is video processing on the PC. Blink Module is a good example. Another problem is the tight integration of hardware. When I have more cameras than the PoE jacks on the NVR, it becomes obsolete. When some hardware fails on the NVR, the whole thing fails. My last integrated NVR developed a problem in the disk controller and the whole thing couldn't be salvaged. In the next round of setting the system up, I decided to de-couple all the pieces for better maintenance and upgradibility. The sweet spot I found is: cameras + powered switch + PC + NVR software + external USB storage. It has work great so far. The old PC was underpowered and I swapped it out without impacting the other pieces. I added more disks as needed with minimum fuss. I replaced some of the cameras without much problem. You're right in that ordinary customers probably won't do all those. For a customer product, a NVR that works with WIFI cameras makes the easiest sales. It has much lower hardware requirement thus keeping the cost down. WIFI cameras are easier to set up and thus plentiful. If it has an Ethernet jack, you can sell a separate powered switch to make it work with the PoE cameras. Basically it's a souped up Blink Module that works with other cameras, with storage, and can stream to apps and web. I mean you can sell a whole package of the pieces, plus phone apps and cloud storage, to offer a complete solution. Most of the pieces are off the shelf, but you can still offer a complete solution with some critical proprietary pieces like your NVR software. Of course you can offer piece by piece as needed, as long as all the pieces can fit together. There're a lot of cross selling opportunities.

michaelt 2y ago

> Always interested in product feedback. While I share your concerns about the security implications of sending video to the cloud, the way I see it if someone's burgling my house they're probably going to steal whatever I'm using for on-prem video storage while they're at it. And while I could secure it in an impenetrable or hidden box - if I have such a box I can put all my valuables in the box, and feel peace of mind without needing any cameras.

mv4 2y ago
These are good points. The main problem we're solving for people is real-time awareness and automation/prevention. The device monitors your cameras locally (no cloud), notifies you, and/or performs actions locally (play barkingdog.mp3, close gates, turn on the lights, etc) that act as a deterrent. Even if your uplink is down. Now, if someone's broken in, that's a different problem. You want video evidence for investigative purposes. The device is small, energy efficient (10-20W typically) and can be easily hidden (provided you supply power and LAN ethernet to it). The storage is encrypted. And we'll be introducing an option for your own offsite backup (again, optional and not centralized). Interesting problem for sure.
theendisney 2y ago
There are many other applications. Even fake cameras work. My cat sometimes decides to gather his own food and not go inside for days. He does bother to check his teratory for intruders. Shady figures and actual con men ringing my bell. Missed deliveries real or lies. Arguments with the significant other about who said what. A drunk englishman sleeping in my garden and other truly hilarious footage.
throwway120385 2y ago
Put it in a NEMA box somewhere out of sight. People will assume it's alarm equipment if you do that and won't mess with it.

scottlamb 2y ago

I've been looking for a camera to recommend for use with my open-source NVR. [1] This sounds promising, but I have a few questions. * What's the status of Uniview? Are their cameras allowed in the US under the 2019 NDAA? still receiving FCC approvals since the Secure Equipment Act of 2021? Does Uniview participate in the Uyghur genocide? * Do you have any models with large sensors, e.g. 1/1.8" or wider? I prefer good night performance if possible, which I believe requires each pixel to be physically somewhat large. There are a lot of many-megapixel cameras with 1/3" sensors out there, which aren't so great there. * What's the pricing? Your camera page [2] has "contact us for info" instead of a price, and when that happens I usually assume it's too expensive for the DIY crowd and drop out. [1] https://github.com/scottlamb/moonfire-nvr https://github.com/scottlamb/moonfire-nvr [2] https://monitoreal.com/product/monitoreal-perimeter-cameras-4mp/ https://monitoreal.com/product/monitoreal-perimeter-cameras-...

mv4 2y ago
1. Uniview [told me] they are NDAA compliant. Most (not all) of their NVRs and cameras are compliant. I was not aware of their involvement in the genocide, but I do see mentions of their facial recognition tech potentially being used. I don't know enough to comment. This is their formal statement regarding their NDAA status: https://www.uniview.com/us/About_Us/Legal_Notice/Notice/202008/963104_612074_0.htm https://www.uniview.com/us/About_Us/Legal_Notice/Notice/2020... 2. we are now working in a new line that will have larger sensors, better low-light capabilities, better audio (2-way). We will publish more in Q4. 3. we've been working with professional installers primarily focusing on SMB, so our current 4MP (2.8mm and 4.0mm) cameras can be in $100-200 range depending on volume. 2MP cameras are sold in $80-130 range. With SMB, price hasn't been an issue. I understand this is not particularly useful for DIY, we're just preparing to start selling direct - and aiming to release cameras in $30-80 range. You can ping me (contact info in profile) if you need more info, or how to evaluate risk-free. Just bear with me as we figure out the DIY route. :)
- scottlamb 2y ago
  Man, so close. Your prices sound really reasonable to me, it's nice to hear that you're preparing for direct sales and for a larger-sensor line. But this does not look good: https://ipvm.com/reports/uniview-uyghur https://ipvm.com/reports/uniview-uyghur

theendisney 2y ago

It should be fine to add a link.

qhwudbebd 2y ago

I'm really interested to hear more about your work too! I've had a few situations where IP cameras would have been ideal, but I dropped the idea after examining a handful because the firmware is invariably too awful to contemplate running. Reading your later replies, I gathered you took a standard camera but wrote clean new firmware for it. Is the SoC on these devices supported by mainline tf-a, u-boot and kernels, or are you stuck on ancient manufacturer ('BSP') kernel forks and so on? What does the userspace you've put together look like?