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I'm not clear why this is true? > But that's on the end user, no? Pollution is a tragedy of commons scenario, so our best tools for solving it are laws and po

by Folcon 2y ago

I'm not clear why this is true? > But that's on the end user, no? Pollution is a tragedy of commons scenario, so our best tools for solving it are laws and policy that force behaviour. I'd be surprised if it's completely impossible to do the resource extraction without minimising impact, we just don't tend to have much pressure to innovate in that direction. The end user on the other hand, has the least power to change any of the dynamics you're describing and is usually least able to choose to do without.

glitchc 2y ago
Except the commons in this case is a shared atmosphere. Unless we get other countries to agree to equally punitive actions, all we end up doing is giving them the license to accelerate their economies at our expense.
- nmz 2y ago
  Its a shared atmosphere, so they will suffer the effects of it equally. This isn't a "just the US" type of thing. if you suffer from hurricanes or monsoons, earthquakes, and so on, it is in your best interest to reduce the effects of pollution. China was the biggest polluter, they still are, but they are taking measures. We also haven't agreed to punitive actions, tax credits incentivize cleaning, but there is barely any punishment or accounting of it. Else coal which is probably the worst form of energy production would not exist.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Sometimes you need to lead by example and bear costs if you want change.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I think you underestimate both the value and importance of individual action by users. The best tools for preventing tragedies of the commons are collective and individual desire to do so. Taking action and paying personal costs are incredibly important. On the flip side, it is extremely difficult to force change top down without people willing to lead by example. Looks at any place with nice commons and they are maintained though widespread desire to do so by individuals. Japan isn't free a litter due to harsh fines, regulatory action, and policing.
- orev 2y ago
  One method of individuals coming together as a collective is called forming a government. One method of individuals expressing their collective desire in that structure is called making laws.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I dont disagree, both are meaningless without broad support for those laws. Murder is extremely easy and has a 50% closure rate. Most enforcement rates are much lower. If you dont convince the vast majority of people to do something, you wont be able to set meaningful policy, and you wont be able to enforce it. My point is to put the primary emphasis on people doing something about it, and not hypocritically telling other people to do something about it.

by Folcon 2y ago

glitchc 2y ago

Except the commons in this case is a shared atmosphere. Unless we get other countries to agree to equally punitive actions, all we end up doing is giving them the license to accelerate their economies at our expense.

nmz 2y ago
Its a shared atmosphere, so they will suffer the effects of it equally. This isn't a "just the US" type of thing. if you suffer from hurricanes or monsoons, earthquakes, and so on, it is in your best interest to reduce the effects of pollution. China was the biggest polluter, they still are, but they are taking measures. We also haven't agreed to punitive actions, tax credits incentivize cleaning, but there is barely any punishment or accounting of it. Else coal which is probably the worst form of energy production would not exist.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Sometimes you need to lead by example and bear costs if you want change.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

I think you underestimate both the value and importance of individual action by users. The best tools for preventing tragedies of the commons are collective and individual desire to do so. Taking action and paying personal costs are incredibly important. On the flip side, it is extremely difficult to force change top down without people willing to lead by example. Looks at any place with nice commons and they are maintained though widespread desire to do so by individuals. Japan isn't free a litter due to harsh fines, regulatory action, and policing.

orev 2y ago
One method of individuals coming together as a collective is called forming a government. One method of individuals expressing their collective desire in that structure is called making laws.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I dont disagree, both are meaningless without broad support for those laws. Murder is extremely easy and has a 50% closure rate. Most enforcement rates are much lower. If you dont convince the vast majority of people to do something, you wont be able to set meaningful policy, and you wont be able to enforce it. My point is to put the primary emphasis on people doing something about it, and not hypocritically telling other people to do something about it.