3 ms·

This is probably also a flawed analogy applying simple ideas to an extremely complex system / set of overlapping systems, but I see UBI as a sort of social and

This is probably also a flawed analogy applying simple ideas to an extremely complex system / set of overlapping systems, but I see UBI as a sort of social and economic lubricant. People at the bottom of the economy are not able to effectively participate in it. At the absolute bottom it's homeless people with no real path to employment or any real ability to improve their situation. You get above that layer and you've got people making constant compromises between competing necessities like housing, nutrition, and clothing. Inconsistent and/or substandard nutrition can be massively impacting to adults and even more so to children. Their immediate and long term mental and physical capability is lessened compared to others. People who aren't able to effectively participate in the economy today have kids who aren't able to effectively participate in the economy tomorrow. This creates a persistent drag on the economy as a whole. It's absolutely possible UBI causes some degree of price increases, but in exchange we get an economy with a larger number of effective participants and less drag at the bottom.

zoky 2y ago
Unfortunately, this thinking is predicated on the idea that those at the very lowest tier of society would participate given the opportunity. To be clear, this is not about the working poor. I don’t think this would ultimately help them. This is also not about those currently on welfare; I don’t think it would help them either. The question is, would it help the homeless man living under a bridge or the homeless woman walking around naked at 7-Eleven? Sadly, I don’t think these people can be helped, at least not just by throwing money at them. Even if UBI were implemented, I don’t see them claiming it, and I don’t see them spending it on anything more than drugs and booze. As far as I’m concerned, rather than implementing UBI, if we were to take that money and use it to implement prison reform and mental health care, it would be far better spent.
- pif 2y ago
  > this is not about the working poor. I don’t think this would ultimately help them. I think you are generally right, but I strongly disagree on this specific point: the working poor would be the most benefitted. They are working, which means they are already taking good decisions and making efforts to improve their lives: money could not be spent in a more productive way than handling it to those gentlemen.
  - zoky 2y ago
    Perhaps, but the problem with UBI being, well, universal is that everyone gets it, including those that the working poor buy from. All of a sudden the suppliers see the purchasers having more money, and they have more money themselves, so where is the disincentive to raise prices? That’s how inflation works, and it’s well known that inflation screws the working poor most of all.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
  You seem to be putting all homeless people into a bucket where they're all equivalent to a crazy person walking around naked in a convenience store. Yes, absolutely, we need to have a real function in our society that provides housing and care for those who are so impacted by mental health challenges that they will never be able to care for themselves. I think it's a mistake to think of most homeless people as you seem to - that they're irredeemable and forever broken.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  > As far as I’m concerned, rather than implementing UBI, if we were to take that money and use it to implement prison reform and mental health care, it would be far better spent. This is kind of trickle-down-ish. When you put a dollar in the pocket of an individual, that dollar was fully spent on helping that individual (your point about what he does with it, and whether that counts as helping, still stands). When you put a dollar in the pocket of a business or institution that "helps people", $0.50 goes to the executives and shareholders, $0.25 goes to all the bloated administrative staff, HR managers, Directors of Paperwork, and so on, $0.20 goes to sub-contractors and sub-sub-contractors who, themselves have executives, shareholders, administration, and at the end of the chain, maybe $0.05 goes to the actual enterprise of helping people.

zoky 2y ago

Unfortunately, this thinking is predicated on the idea that those at the very lowest tier of society would participate given the opportunity. To be clear, this is not about the working poor. I don’t think this would ultimately help them. This is also not about those currently on welfare; I don’t think it would help them either. The question is, would it help the homeless man living under a bridge or the homeless woman walking around naked at 7-Eleven? Sadly, I don’t think these people can be helped, at least not just by throwing money at them. Even if UBI were implemented, I don’t see them claiming it, and I don’t see them spending it on anything more than drugs and booze. As far as I’m concerned, rather than implementing UBI, if we were to take that money and use it to implement prison reform and mental health care, it would be far better spent.

pif 2y ago
> this is not about the working poor. I don’t think this would ultimately help them. I think you are generally right, but I strongly disagree on this specific point: the working poor would be the most benefitted. They are working, which means they are already taking good decisions and making efforts to improve their lives: money could not be spent in a more productive way than handling it to those gentlemen.
- zoky 2y ago
  Perhaps, but the problem with UBI being, well, universal is that everyone gets it, including those that the working poor buy from. All of a sudden the suppliers see the purchasers having more money, and they have more money themselves, so where is the disincentive to raise prices? That’s how inflation works, and it’s well known that inflation screws the working poor most of all.
sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
You seem to be putting all homeless people into a bucket where they're all equivalent to a crazy person walking around naked in a convenience store. Yes, absolutely, we need to have a real function in our society that provides housing and care for those who are so impacted by mental health challenges that they will never be able to care for themselves. I think it's a mistake to think of most homeless people as you seem to - that they're irredeemable and forever broken.
ryandrake 2y ago
> As far as I’m concerned, rather than implementing UBI, if we were to take that money and use it to implement prison reform and mental health care, it would be far better spent. This is kind of trickle-down-ish. When you put a dollar in the pocket of an individual, that dollar was fully spent on helping that individual (your point about what he does with it, and whether that counts as helping, still stands). When you put a dollar in the pocket of a business or institution that "helps people", $0.50 goes to the executives and shareholders, $0.25 goes to all the bloated administrative staff, HR managers, Directors of Paperwork, and so on, $0.20 goes to sub-contractors and sub-sub-contractors who, themselves have executives, shareholders, administration, and at the end of the chain, maybe $0.05 goes to the actual enterprise of helping people.