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No. The universal in UBI is key, it means everyone gets the same basic amount, no matter how rich (reframing on purpose to make a point). No one wants to give

No. The universal in UBI is key, it means everyone gets the same basic amount, no matter how rich (reframing on purpose to make a point). No one wants to give rich people more money, not even those who conceived of the plan. When people start talking about UBI, they are really talking about a guaranteed minimum income. And that's effectively welfare, which we already have. So it becomes mainly a discussion about reducing barriers to access welfare.

petesergeant 2y ago
Why is it key? What does it being truly universal unlock that being means tested does not?
derdi 2y ago
> When people start talking about UBI, they are really talking about a guaranteed minimum income. No. A guaranteed minimum income means that you can make 500 Euros scrubbing toilets, and welfare bureaucracy will top that up to 1000 Euros after "means testing". A UBI means that you get 1000 Euros from the government without bureaucracy. If you so wish, you can earn additional income by scrubbing toilets. > No one wants to give rich people more money, not even those who conceived of the plan. There's nothing wrong with giving the rich 1000 Euros like everyone else, as long as tax rates are adjusted so that they effectively give the 1000 Euros back. This zero-sum effect may seem silly, but it's a simple implementation without any additional bureaucracy.
- hellojesus 2y ago
  They rich would have to give more back than the 1k they take. Otherwise the program wouldn't be funded for those that give back less than 1k.
  - derdi 2y ago
    Sure. There is no magic source of free money. My point was that, even if there were a magic source of free money for the UBI, "don't give money to the rich" would still be implemented in the most simple way as "do give money to the rich, then get it back".
stvltvs 2y ago
UBI really does mean giving money to everyone, including people who don't really need it.

petesergeant 2y ago

Why is it key? What does it being truly universal unlock that being means tested does not?

derdi 2y ago

> When people start talking about UBI, they are really talking about a guaranteed minimum income. No. A guaranteed minimum income means that you can make 500 Euros scrubbing toilets, and welfare bureaucracy will top that up to 1000 Euros after "means testing". A UBI means that you get 1000 Euros from the government without bureaucracy. If you so wish, you can earn additional income by scrubbing toilets. > No one wants to give rich people more money, not even those who conceived of the plan. There's nothing wrong with giving the rich 1000 Euros like everyone else, as long as tax rates are adjusted so that they effectively give the 1000 Euros back. This zero-sum effect may seem silly, but it's a simple implementation without any additional bureaucracy.

hellojesus 2y ago
They rich would have to give more back than the 1k they take. Otherwise the program wouldn't be funded for those that give back less than 1k.
- derdi 2y ago
  Sure. There is no magic source of free money. My point was that, even if there were a magic source of free money for the UBI, "don't give money to the rich" would still be implemented in the most simple way as "do give money to the rich, then get it back".

stvltvs 2y ago

UBI really does mean giving money to everyone, including people who don't really need it.