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...huh. As a non-native speaker, that was... easy to read? Where did I learn this vocabulary again? I haven't read Shakespeare's works yet (though they are on m

by lieks 2y ago

...huh. As a non-native speaker, that was... easy to read? Where did I learn this vocabulary again? I haven't read Shakespeare's works yet (though they are on my reading list). What makes it hard to read for some people and not others (as with any translation problem) is unfamiliarity. It's easier to learn just japanese honorifics and then read a partial translation than to learn all of japanese and read the original. But a full translation loses that dimension of meaning. But it's not as difficult to learn some Early Modern English vocabulary, and this way you can avoid losing any meaning. I hear there are a lot of puns that wouldn't work with modern vocabulary. If it wasn't required reading in English-speaking countries, "translating" it probably wouldn't be even in consideration.

goosedragons 2y ago
That's not actually Shakespeare. Enough word meanings have shifted and other words that were once common becoming rare that it makes it much harder to read. A lot of context has been lost too because we're not 16th century English people. It's particularly bad in the "comedies". If every joke has to be pointed out and explained is it really a joke still? Like here's some real random Hamlet: "My lord, as I was sewing in my chamber, Lord Hamlet, with his doublet all unbrac’d, No hat upon his head, his stockings foul’d, Ungart’red, and down-gyved to his ankle, Pale as his shirt, his knees knocking each other, And with a look so piteous in purport As if he had been loosed out of hell To speak of horrors, he comes before me." What exactly is down-gyved? Purport as noun here is weird for contemporary speakers even if they have an idea of the meaning and a lot of the clothing terms like doublet and ungartered are not spectacularly common these days.
- saghm 2y ago
  "Down-gyved" sounds more like it's gibberish from the Jabberwocky than actual English, and that's honestly true of a lot of Shakespeare nowadays.
  - qohen 2y ago
    "Ungart’red, and down-gyved to his ankle" -- seems pretty clear that it means something to the effect that his unfastened stockings have fallen down to his ankles, no? And the context seems clear, that Hamlet's clothes are in disarray, as is his emotional-state.
    - saghm 2y ago
      > "Ungart’red, and down-gyved to his ankle" -- seems pretty clear that it means something to the effect that his unfastened stockings have fallen down to his ankles, no? I think we'll have to agree to disagree on whether this is "pretty clear" or "only passably comprehensible due to the surrounding context". It's hard for me to consider something "pretty clear" if I could replace one of the words with actual gibberish and the meaning wouldn't change to me; "Ungart’red, and down-barboodled to his ankle" is equally "clear".

by lieks 2y ago

goosedragons 2y ago

That's not actually Shakespeare. Enough word meanings have shifted and other words that were once common becoming rare that it makes it much harder to read. A lot of context has been lost too because we're not 16th century English people. It's particularly bad in the "comedies". If every joke has to be pointed out and explained is it really a joke still? Like here's some real random Hamlet: "My lord, as I was sewing in my chamber, Lord Hamlet, with his doublet all unbrac’d, No hat upon his head, his stockings foul’d, Ungart’red, and down-gyved to his ankle, Pale as his shirt, his knees knocking each other, And with a look so piteous in purport As if he had been loosed out of hell To speak of horrors, he comes before me." What exactly is down-gyved? Purport as noun here is weird for contemporary speakers even if they have an idea of the meaning and a lot of the clothing terms like doublet and ungartered are not spectacularly common these days.

saghm 2y ago
"Down-gyved" sounds more like it's gibberish from the Jabberwocky than actual English, and that's honestly true of a lot of Shakespeare nowadays.
- qohen 2y ago
  "Ungart’red, and down-gyved to his ankle" -- seems pretty clear that it means something to the effect that his unfastened stockings have fallen down to his ankles, no? And the context seems clear, that Hamlet's clothes are in disarray, as is his emotional-state.
  - saghm 2y ago
    > "Ungart’red, and down-gyved to his ankle" -- seems pretty clear that it means something to the effect that his unfastened stockings have fallen down to his ankles, no? I think we'll have to agree to disagree on whether this is "pretty clear" or "only passably comprehensible due to the surrounding context". It's hard for me to consider something "pretty clear" if I could replace one of the words with actual gibberish and the meaning wouldn't change to me; "Ungart’red, and down-barboodled to his ankle" is equally "clear".