3 ms·

> - Even in language learning. We have the useful fiction that there is a 1-1 relationship between words in two languages, but there almost never is. It's not

by gwervc 2y ago

> - Even in language learning. We have the useful fiction that there is a 1-1 relationship between words in two languages, but there almost never is. It's not really a problem: space repetition is a way to build familiarity with vocabulary. Once it is done, more finer uses can be inferred from context. The value lies in breadth not depth.

gwd 2y ago
A couple of problems I found with Anki for languages: 1. The words aren't in context, which leads to "flashcard blindness", where you see a word in context, know that you recognize it, but can't remember what it means. 2. The theory behind spaced repetition is that you learn most efficiently when you try to remember something just when you're about to forget it. But that means that if the algorithm is working properly, every single card is hard. This makes motivation a problem, because you know studying is going to be a grind, not fun. 3. While "being able to remember it after thinking a second or two" might be fine when studying for an exam, or in many other contexts where memorization might be important, that's too slow for languages. What you want for a language is "know it immediately without having to think about it". 4. The "scheduled review" system is too inflexible. Some days you get only a handful of cards to review, some days you get dozens. It's hard to tell when you're starting out how many cards you should be adding each day such that the number of cards match the amount of time / effort you have to study. Furthermore, if you skip a single day, you have twice as much the next day; and if life happens and you end up missing a week or a month, you come back with a giant jumble of cards, half of which you've forgotten, and it's really difficult to dig your way out of it. By a strange coincidence, in 2019 I also started on an alternate to Anki to help myself study Mandarin. It has some similarities to his system, in that there's multi-level knowledge; but it's different in that instead of having a fixed schedule, it has the concept of "difficulty" and "study value" for each word / grammar concept, and the algorithm tries to give you a full "readunit" of "native input" which will balance the two. "Spaced repetition" emerges naturally from the model, and if you go away for a week (or 6 months), it knows you've forgotten some things, so it gradually refreshes your memory. It's in closed beta now; the first public language (MVP) will be in Biblical Greek, but the second one (if it happens, maybe in a year or two) will be in Mandarin; and hopefully there will be other ones after that. There's a sign-up form you can use to be notified for updates. https://www.laleolanguage.com https://www.laleolanguage.com
AlchemistCamp 2y ago
It's a very bad way to build familiarity with vocabulary for two reasons—it doesn't teach word boundaries and it doesn't teach collocations. For example, even simple words like "nose" differ a bit from language to language. Can "nose" refer to the thing that smells on a pig or an elephant? In English, no. In Chinese, yes. In Malay, people and pigs have noses but an elephant's trunk is a different word. In English if someone asks you how you are, it's reasonable to reply "absolutely fantastic" or "pretty good", while it would be a bit odd to answer "pretty fantastic" and very strange to answer "absolutely good". This isn't because of a grammatical issue that can be memorized. It's just that certain words tend to be used together and the only way to really consistently get it right is to get a lot of input and develop a feel for the language. Extensive reading is a better way of building and maintaining vocabulary than anything you can do with flash cards and at the same time you'll be gaining understanding about the common stories, beliefs and culture of the speakers of the target language.
- vlz 2y ago
  Hmm, sort of agree for the later stages of learning, but learning by flashcards is incredibly helpful at the beginning and to get started. Referring badly to a nose on an elephant is better than not having any word ready at all. Saying „absolutely good“ is totally fine for most people if you are a beginner in the english language. (Also, you can put phrases on flashcards) And sure, reading extensively is a great way to build vocabulary. But it takes a while (depending on the language quite a long while) before you can begin to read extensively.
  - AlchemistCamp 2y ago
    A lack of suitable resources is often a problem at the lower levels. FWIW, I experienced this first hand as the first foreign language I learned to a relatively fluent (~B2 level) was Japanese and that was from 2000-2002. Graded readers are ideal early on, but if the language you're learning just doesn't have them, then going through multiple textbooks aimed at your level (e.g. an intro textbook from publisher A and another intro textbook from publisher B) is a good strategy. Materials aimed at 5 or 6 year-old native learners are also often a decent path. It's not exciting but there's a lot of repetition, there are a lot of pictures and if it's a character-based language, there will be a syllabary like hiragana/zhuyin/pinyin to help you.

by gwervc 2y ago

gwd 2y ago

A couple of problems I found with Anki for languages: 1. The words aren't in context, which leads to "flashcard blindness", where you see a word in context, know that you recognize it, but can't remember what it means. 2. The theory behind spaced repetition is that you learn most efficiently when you try to remember something just when you're about to forget it. But that means that if the algorithm is working properly, every single card is hard. This makes motivation a problem, because you know studying is going to be a grind, not fun. 3. While "being able to remember it after thinking a second or two" might be fine when studying for an exam, or in many other contexts where memorization might be important, that's too slow for languages. What you want for a language is "know it immediately without having to think about it". 4. The "scheduled review" system is too inflexible. Some days you get only a handful of cards to review, some days you get dozens. It's hard to tell when you're starting out how many cards you should be adding each day such that the number of cards match the amount of time / effort you have to study. Furthermore, if you skip a single day, you have twice as much the next day; and if life happens and you end up missing a week or a month, you come back with a giant jumble of cards, half of which you've forgotten, and it's really difficult to dig your way out of it. By a strange coincidence, in 2019 I also started on an alternate to Anki to help myself study Mandarin. It has some similarities to his system, in that there's multi-level knowledge; but it's different in that instead of having a fixed schedule, it has the concept of "difficulty" and "study value" for each word / grammar concept, and the algorithm tries to give you a full "readunit" of "native input" which will balance the two. "Spaced repetition" emerges naturally from the model, and if you go away for a week (or 6 months), it knows you've forgotten some things, so it gradually refreshes your memory. It's in closed beta now; the first public language (MVP) will be in Biblical Greek, but the second one (if it happens, maybe in a year or two) will be in Mandarin; and hopefully there will be other ones after that. There's a sign-up form you can use to be notified for updates. https://www.laleolanguage.com https://www.laleolanguage.com

AlchemistCamp 2y ago

It's a very bad way to build familiarity with vocabulary for two reasons—it doesn't teach word boundaries and it doesn't teach collocations. For example, even simple words like "nose" differ a bit from language to language. Can "nose" refer to the thing that smells on a pig or an elephant? In English, no. In Chinese, yes. In Malay, people and pigs have noses but an elephant's trunk is a different word. In English if someone asks you how you are, it's reasonable to reply "absolutely fantastic" or "pretty good", while it would be a bit odd to answer "pretty fantastic" and very strange to answer "absolutely good". This isn't because of a grammatical issue that can be memorized. It's just that certain words tend to be used together and the only way to really consistently get it right is to get a lot of input and develop a feel for the language. Extensive reading is a better way of building and maintaining vocabulary than anything you can do with flash cards and at the same time you'll be gaining understanding about the common stories, beliefs and culture of the speakers of the target language.

vlz 2y ago
Hmm, sort of agree for the later stages of learning, but learning by flashcards is incredibly helpful at the beginning and to get started. Referring badly to a nose on an elephant is better than not having any word ready at all. Saying „absolutely good“ is totally fine for most people if you are a beginner in the english language. (Also, you can put phrases on flashcards) And sure, reading extensively is a great way to build vocabulary. But it takes a while (depending on the language quite a long while) before you can begin to read extensively.
- AlchemistCamp 2y ago
  A lack of suitable resources is often a problem at the lower levels. FWIW, I experienced this first hand as the first foreign language I learned to a relatively fluent (~B2 level) was Japanese and that was from 2000-2002. Graded readers are ideal early on, but if the language you're learning just doesn't have them, then going through multiple textbooks aimed at your level (e.g. an intro textbook from publisher A and another intro textbook from publisher B) is a good strategy. Materials aimed at 5 or 6 year-old native learners are also often a decent path. It's not exciting but there's a lot of repetition, there are a lot of pictures and if it's a character-based language, there will be a syllabary like hiragana/zhuyin/pinyin to help you.